Alive (regenerated) but Dead (in sins): the Living Dead.

[eternomade]

If faith is not granted by God, then it is man's work. Is faith a work? Yes! A work of God!

Matthew 23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

John 6
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[eternomade]

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ under the new covenant

There is no justification apart from the faithfulness of Christ under the new covenant.

 

[fltom]

Calvary paid the price sufficiently for all. That blood justifies all. If you mean to say that blood, the justification by Christ's blood is applicable only after a person believes in Christ then that's Calvinism. If you mean that God will not save a person unless s/he believes then 1) "faith causes salvation" is being argued and that is nowhere found in scripture, and 2) that makes God dependent on the human and not just any human; The Creator would be dependent on the corrupted will of a sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate, unjustified, God-hating creature in order to save that creature. The Creator dependent on the creature is bad theology.

Whereas, if God justifies that person by His grace because He chooses to do so for reasons and purposes of His own regardless of the qualities, choices, or actions of the one He has chosen to save then the Creator is not dependent on the creature. If, having extended His grace, He also chooses to extend the blood of Christ to all humanity then, again, He does not make Himself dependent upon the sinful flesh of the unregenerate faithless creature. If He designs His salvation of the creature such that He first justifies and then gifts the creature the ability to collaborate with Him then, again, He does not make Himself dependent upon the creature being saved.

Nowhere are those without faith justified in the New testament

What possible reason could there be for multiple forms of justification?

Having been justified once what need would there be for another?

In any case there are no scriptures showing men are justified in unbelief

further all heavenly blessings are in Christ (Eph 1:3) they are Christocentric

how are you going to create heavenly blessings outside of christ?

 

[Josheb]

Nowhere are those without faith justified in the New testament

What possible reason could there be for multiple forms of justification?

Having been justified once what need would there be for another?

In any case there are no scriptures showing men are justified in unbelief

further all heavenly blessings are in Christ (Eph 1:3) they are Christocentric

how are you going to create heavenly blessings outside of christ?

All of that has all already been covered.

 

[Josheb]

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ under the new covenant

Scripture says otherwise, and this has already been addressed.

 

[fltom]

Scripture says otherwise, and this has already been addressed.

Nonsense you have not posted a single verse which speaks of men being justified - declared righteous apart from faith

you simply posted a listed of various level of causes as though they were different instantances of justification

rather than what they were - different level of causes

Primary cause, mediate cause and instrumental cause

God's grace - primary cause

Christ's blood - material cause

faith - instrumental cause

example

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

 

[Josheb]

What cannot be escaped whether objective or subjective genitive is

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

it is accessed only by faith in Christ

No one has denied justification by faith. No one. Most of us have stood on whole scripture and ALL of the occasions where scripture plainly states we are justified by something. We haven't stood on just one verse, or just one justification like you've done. The op arbitrarily chose Galatians 2:16 and proof-texted the verse. It took a score of pages to get the op to acknowledge all the justifications scripture plainly asserts and, in the end, there was open refusal to work with those texts. No one wants to spend twenty more pages trying to get the same acknowledgment of scripture out of you. Belaboring faith in Christ when no one denies faith in Christ is justifying keeps you stuck, not us.

We are justified by many things, not just faith. Pinning all of justification solely on faith is bad theology. Saying no one is justified by grace apart from their faith is contradictory and thereby self-refuting. If it is by grace, then it has nothing to do with anything other than grace. There'd be no grace on the unredeemed if faith were required to receive grace. Every non-believer on the planet would drop dead if God's grace was dependent on their faith.

Repeating the protest ad nauseam does not make it true.

• We are justified by God's grace.
• We are justified by Christ's blood.
• We are justified by the faith of Christ.
• We are justified by faith apart from works.
• We are justified by faith that is evidence by works (faithfulness).

Those are not interpretations of scripture. Those are statements the scripture explicitly make. The reason this is germane is because the justification of Titus 3:5-7 is the justification by God's grace, not the justification by the still sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's flesh. There is no mention of faith in Titus 3. We will become heirs having been justified by God's grace. We were washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit also by God's grace. That is what the Titus 3 text states. The op read into the text things the text never mentions. There is no mention of faith in Titus 3.


So, every single post where you've posted about faith is off-topic.


There is no mention of faith in Titus 3.

 

[fltom]

No one has denied justification by faith. No one. Most of us have stood on whole scripture and ALL of the occasions where scripture plainly states we are justified by something. We haven't stood on just one verse, or just one justification like you've done. The op arbitrarily chose Galatians 2:16 and proof-texted the verse. It took a score of pages to get the op to acknowledge all the justifications scripture plainly asserts and, in the end, there was open refusal to work with those texts. No one wants to spend twenty more pages trying to get the same acknowledgment of scripture out of you. Belaboring faith in Christ when no one denies faith in Christ is justifying keeps you stuck, not us.

We are justified by many things, not just faith. Pinning all of justification solely on faith is bad theology. Saying no one is justified by grace apart from their faith is contradictory and thereby self-refuting. If it is by grace, then it has nothing to do with anything other than grace. There'd be no grace on the unredeemed if faith were required to receive grace. Every non-believer on the planet would drop dead if God's grace was dependent on their faith.

Repeating the protest ad nauseam does not make it true.

• We are justified by God's grace.
• We are justified by Christ's blood.
• We are justified by the faith of Christ.
• We are justified by faith apart from works.
• We are justified by faith that is evidence by works (faithfulness).

Those are not interpretations of scripture. Those are statements the scripture explicitly make. The reason this is germane is because the justification of Titus 3:5-7 is the justification by God's grace, not the justification by the still sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's flesh. There is no mention of faith in Titus 3. We will become heirs having been justified by God's grace. We were washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit also by God's grace. That is what the Titus 3 text states. The op read into the text things the text never mentions. There is no mention of faith in Titus 3.


So, every single post where you've posted about faith is off-topic.


There is no mention of faith in Titus 3.

Again those are not different declarations of righteousness but different level of causes of the one justification which depends on faith

One is justified by God's grace because of christ's sacrifice when they believe

Primary , material and instrumental causes

there is justification in Titus 3

justification (declared riighteousness) always includes faith

you are therefore in error




there is not justification of the faithless

 

[Josheb]

Again those are not different declarations of righteousness but different level of causes of the one justification which depends on faith

I don't disagree. I'd change the wording and replace "levels" with aspects. The problem is the next sentence...

One is justified by God's grace because of christ's sacrifice when they believe

You are making that up.

What we know is justification occurs by many means and at least two, if not three of the five listed occur long before a person has ever heard the gospel, much less believed what they've heard. We also know that faith is a gift (Eph. 2:8), so the justification by faith is more accurately understood as justification by faith that was gifted. We also know that salvation is by grace through faith (never by faith) and that it is not of ourselves. That makes the justification that is by faith a justification by faith that is gifted and not of ourselves. In addition, we also know that when a person hears it is the word of God that works in them to believe 1 Th. 2:13).

Those are the conditions scripture states. None of it is ever attributed to the flesh. All of this was covered previously. Focusing on one of the five does not negate the rest.

Primary , material and instrumental causes

there is justification in Titus 3

justification (declared riighteousness) always includes faith

There is no mention of "faith" in Titus 3!

you are therefore in error

The scriptures prove otherwise.

there is not justification of the faithless

Argumentum ad nauseam.



We all believe there is an order to salvation. It's the synergist who reads more sequence into the Ordo Salutis than is warranted, more than is actually stated in scripture. Because the synergist reads sequence into the order salutis where none exists, he naturally sees justification as a fixed point. Because of the synergist proclivity to read scripture inferentially, the fixed point of justification is seen as a fixed point in a sequence when in fact the "different levels of causes" can only exist at that one fixed point.

That's not an objective reading of scripture.

You might have to clarify this next matter so we better understand you in particular because the vast overwhelming number of Christians and Christian doctrine hold to "Grace precedes salvation," "Grace precedes sanctification," Grace precedes regeneration," "Grace precedes justification," and "Grace precedes faith." God's grace began at creation. 1 Peter 1:20 is an act of God's grace.

Grace precedes salvation.
Grace precedes sanctification.
Grace precedes regeneration.
Grace precedes justification.
Grace precedes faith.

Do you disagree with any of those statements? If so, which one(s)?

 

[fltom]

Again those are not different declarations of righteousness but different level of causes of the one justification which depends on faith

I don't disagree. I'd change the wording and replace "levels" with aspects. The problem is the next sentence...

One is justified by God's grace because of christ's sacrifice when they believe

Josheb

you are making that up.

Afraid not I gave you examples where men were stated to be justified by grace, by Christ blood and the context showed faith was involved

Romans 5:1–9 (KJV 1900) — 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,





What we know is justification occurs by many means and at least two, if not three of the five listed occur long before a person has ever heard the gospel, much less believed what they've heard. ne(s)?

Seriously Your argument is absurd

Were you justified once by grace another time because of Christ blood and another time by faith

What happened did you lose that justification that you had to be justified by another means

or were you only partialy justified once by grace, another time partially by the blood of Christ with the final portion by faith

or were some justified by faith., others justied by grace still otherws by the blood of Christ

Nope the primary cause of your justification was god's grace , the material cause Christs blood, the instrumental cause faith

That justification is by faith shows it is by grace Rom 4:1-16

that it is because of Christ blood and faith is shown in rom 5:1-9

in fact grace, blood and faith are seen in those 9 verses

add to that there is not a single verse which shows an unbeliever has been justified

and that idea is completely anithetical to the bible

as the unbeliever is under condemnation

John 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

the wrath of God being upon him

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those the bible states are condemnned and under the wrath of God you want to justify

your argument is completely unbiblical and refuted

 

[eternomade]

the wrath of God being upon him

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those the bible states are condemnned and under the wrath of God you want to justify

your argument is completely unbiblical and refuted

How can Christ be a propiation if one still remains under wrath? Where is this wrath coming from?

The ash of the burnt sacrifice signifies that all the wrath was spent. There was nothing left to burn. So why is there any wrath towards God's people, if they Lamb had been slain?

And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and his linen breeches shall he put upon his flesh, and take up the ashes which the fire hath consumed with the burnt offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar.

And he shall put off his garments, and put on other garments, and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place.
Leviticus 6:10‭-‬11 KJV

 

[fltom]

How can Christ be a propiation if one still remains under wrath? Where is this wrath coming from?

The ash of the burnt sacrifice signifies that all the wrath was spent. There was nothing left to burn. So why is there any wrath towards God's people, if they Lamb had been slain?

And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and his linen breeches shall he put upon his flesh, and take up the ashes which the fire hath consumed with the burnt offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar.

And he shall put off his garments, and put on other garments, and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place.
Leviticus 6:10‭-‬11 KJV

Until one believes one is under the wrath of God

thats scripture

Dont know why you are quoting from the old covenant as we are not under it

 

[eternomade]

Dont know why you are quoting from the old covenant as we are not under it

I know you don't know why. I'm concerned for you.

Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:45 KJV

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:5 KJV

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:23‭-‬24 KJV

 

[preacher4truth]

I know you don't know why. I'm concerned for you.

Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:45 KJV

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:5 KJV

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:23‭-‬24 KJV

It's almost unbelievable he said that, but given the situation, it's not unbelievable. It could be a bout of Andy Stanley's "We need to unhitch ourselves from the OT Scriptures" syndrome. In reality it's probably something he caught from Leighton "Choice Meat Personal Achievement" Flowers.

Flom should have been there to tell Paul that 2 Timothy 3:16 need only apply to the NT letters being written. He should have also instructed Paul to cease using quotes from OT Scriptures too.

But these humanists know everything apparently, and they're trying to teach us their ways. But that's OK, let them do it their way, and we'll do it God's way.

 

[fltom]

I know you don't know why. I'm concerned for you.

Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:45 KJV

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:5 KJV

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:23‭-‬24 KJV

Your point ?

You seem to not realize there is a difference between atonement made and atonement applied
The atonement is conditional

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God gave his son to the world only those in the world who believe receive its benefits

 

[eternomade]

It's almost unbelievable he said that, but given the situation, it's not unbelievable. It could be a bout of Andy Stanley's "We need to unhitch ourselves from the OT Scriptures" syndrome. In reality it's probably something he caught from Leighton "Choice Meat Personal Achievement" Flowers.

Flom should have been there to tell Paul that 2 Timothy 3:16 need only apply to the NT letters being written. He should have also instructed Paul to cease using quotes from OT Scriptures too.

But these humanists know everything apparently, and they're trying to teach us their ways. But that's OK, let them do it their way, and we'll do it God's way.

Yup. I am not trying to put anyone under the bondage of the law, but show Christ in the law. How quickly do I read over Leviticus and miss these truths about Christ!

 

[eternomade]

Exodus 25
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

John 20
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

 

[Theophilus]

Since I’m not a Jew those into legalism can have the law, the OT and remain in bondage . Christ has set me free from the law , the Tudor. Who has bewitched you ?

Galatians 5:4, Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 2:16-19, Romans 3:20, Romans 10:4, Acts 13:39,

 

[fltom]

It's almost unbelievable he said that, but given the situation, it's not unbelievable. It could be a bout of Andy Stanley's "We need to unhitch ourselves from the OT Scriptures" syndrome. In reality it's probably something he caught from Leighton "Choice Meat Personal Achievement" Flowers.

Flom should have been there to tell Paul that 2 Timothy 3:16 need only apply to the NT letters being written. He should have also instructed Paul to cease using quotes from OT Scriptures too.

But these humanists know everything apparently, and they're trying to teach us their ways. But that's OK, let them do it their way, and we'll do it God's way.

Resorting to ad hominem and mocking again when you claimed to be interrested in bible based discussions

Is that all you got?

BTW are you still sacrificing Rams

 

[eternomade]

Since I’m not a Jew those into legalism can have the law, the OT and remain in bondage . Christ has set me free from the law , the Tudor. Who has bewitched you ?

Galatians 5:4, Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 2:16-19, Romans 3:20, Romans 10:4, Acts 13:39,

The Law is the ministry of death. I don't think you have any idea what I believe about the law in regards to the believers life. The law is like an x-ray, it will tell you what is wrong with you, but it wont do anything to fix you.

All you do is misrepresent people. Why not ask them what they believe instead of creating strawman? I am not a Jew, I am not under the law or in bondage. I am free born.