Born Again--the Early Church Fathers and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints agree

[dberrie2020]

Why didn't Jesus say he that isn't baptized shall be damned? After all baptism is a requirement...right?

Didn't I just post this in post #39?

"Here is the second part:

" but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Why would baptism need to be included in being damned--if it takes belief to be baptized? Take away belief--and it automatically takes away baptism, no integral components need to be added.

It's like saying--those with a car with a running engine can travel, but those without a car can't. If you don't have a car--you don't have a running engine. There's no need to add the running engine addition--it's obvious at that point one does not have a car with a running engine--if they don't have a car. That is--to most it would be obvious."

 

[dberrie2020]

You reply "works-based salvation" is defined as "one can work his way into salvation without help". That's not what it means when being discussed. Works-based salvation means grace, through faith, AND baptism, or keeping God's commandments,

What is your evidence baptism or keeping the commandments isn't integral to faith in Jesus Christ?

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

or depending on our own merits or our own best efforts.

But that goes back to Brother's testimony:--

"one can work his way into salvation without help"

You continue to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. So, then, when someone is baptized it doesn't require any effort on their part, is that what you're saying? I don't know boJ, but I would venture most would agree being baptized is good AND a work when added to Grace, through faith, through Christ.

The scriptures testify to that in an additional way:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's God adding His grace to the work of those who repent and are baptized.

Interesting. Then you can understand my confusion when I read, from your own religious belief systems resources and leaders:

The LDS Bible Dictionary tell us that the grace unto “eternal life and exaltation” is insufficient “without total effort on the part of the recipient”:
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23)” (p. 697).

I have asked you--and the critics here--to explain how that is any different than the testimony of the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


If that is true--then the thelogy of the critics here is false--at once!

Under the heading “2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do”, the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads, “We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

How is that any different than the testimony here?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

To help explain what “after all we can do” means Mormon leaders sometimes cross-reference 2 Nephi 25:23 with Moroni 10:32. For example:
“And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ’ (Moro. 10:32).” – Dallin H. Oaks[fn]Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?” Ensign, May 1998, p. 55[/fn]

Could you explain how that conflicts with this scripture?

Romans 1:18---King James Version
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

I'll stop there but want to highlight that there is a clear difference between what you, as a Mormon believes in "all that you can do" and what I believe "grace alone, through faith alone" is.

Let's await your answer to the above questions--before you claim any victory.

Do you have any scriptural reference to the term "faith alone"--found in the entire Biblical text?

 

[CrowCross]

Didn't I just post this in post #39?

"Here is the second part:

" but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Why would baptism need to be included in being damned--if it takes belief to be baptized? Take away belief--and it automatically takes away baptism, no integral components need to be added.

It's like saying--those with a car with a running engine can travel, but those without a car can't. If you don't have a car--you don't have a running engine. There's no need to add the running engine addition--it's obvious at that point one does not have a car with a running engine--if they don't have a car. That is--to most it would be obvious."

According to you it takes both to be saved. As I have said....Jesus didn't mention both in the second part.

As I have said Jesus marntions salvation without baptism in many verses....Now, if you want to get baptized, have at it.

Secondly the mormons teach that only their baptsim saves.

 

[dberrie2020]

According to you it takes both to be saved.

It was according to Jesus Christ --which was quoted here:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

It only takes the composite one to be damned:

" but he that believeth not shall be damned."

 

[Russianwolfe]

OK, John 3:16 says...believe....NOT baptism.

I also presented several other verses.

And here is what Christ said: Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe and be baptized. You do disagree with the Savior of the World!! Or are you going to present several verses and logic to show that what Christ spoke doesn't really matter or mean what it so plainly says? You say you believe in the Bible more than we do, but at every turn, you show that you can manipulate words and logic to make anything that Christ said a thing of nothing. If you truly believed the Bible and Christ, then you would ignore nothing and reason out a way to follow everything that Christ said.

 

[Russianwolfe]

According to you it takes both to be saved. As I have said....Jesus didn't mention both in the second part.

As I have said Jesus marntions salvation without baptism in many verses....Now, if you want to get baptized, have at it.

Secondly the mormons teach that only their baptsim saves.

So you think it shows your devotion to Christ to manipulate his words so that you can believe or not believe anything? If you take all the verse and construct a doctrine out of the whole instead of breaking it into pieces and discarding the parts you don't like, you are more likely to arrive at the truth.

 

[MMDAN]

According to you it takes both to be saved. As I have said....Jesus didn't mention both in the second part.

As I have said Jesus marntions salvation without baptism in many verses....Now, if you want to get baptized, have at it.

Secondly the mormons teach that only their baptsim saves.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[dberrie2020]

According to you it takes both to be saved.

According to Jesus also:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

As I have said....Jesus didn't mention both in the second part.

It does not take both to be condemned. One can disbelieve Jesus Christ without water baptism.

It takes both to be saved:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

 

[CrowCross]

And here is what Christ said: Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe and be baptized. You do disagree with the Savior of the World!! Or are you going to present several verses and logic to show that what Christ spoke doesn't really matter or mean what it so plainly says? You say you believe in the Bible more than we do, but at every turn, you show that you can manipulate words and logic to make anything that Christ said a thing of nothing. If you truly believed the Bible and Christ, then you would ignore nothing and reason out a way to follow everything that Christ said.

As pointed out previously and not refuted the second part of the verse leaves out baptism.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not (and is not baptized) shall be damned.

Why was baptism left out of the second part?
Secondly are you saying Jesus was wrong when He spoke in John 3:16? There are several other verses I can present if you like....just ask.

Keep in mind the mormon teaching is that baptism must be performed by a recognized mormon priest.....Melchizedek Priesthood.... or the baptism is for naught.

---------------------------------

Two priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders witness each baptism to make sure it is performed properly. The baptism must be repeated if the words are not spoken exactly as given in Doctrine and Covenants 20:73 or if part of the person’s body or clothing is not immersed completely. LDS source

Instructions for Performing a Baptism​

Under the direction of the presiding authority, a priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder may perform the ordinance of baptism. To do so, he:

1. Stands in the water with the person to be baptized.
2. Holds the person’s right wrist with his left hand (for convenience and safety); the person who is being baptized holds the priesthood holder’s left wrist with his or her left hand.
3. Raises his right arm to the square.
4. States the person’s full name and says, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:73).
5. Has the person hold his or her nose with the right hand (for convenience); then the priesthood holder places his right hand high on the person’s back and immerses the person completely, including the person’s clothing.
6. Helps the person come up out of the water.

If you didn't do it correctly...as the LDS says you must do...then you missed out on the Gospel of baptism.
What does this mean? If you are not a Mormon and baptized the correct way....you can't be saved.

Bascially the Mormon doctrine says if you are not a Mormon and their baptism gospel is not part of your salvation...you're lost.

 

[CrowCross]

According to Jesus also:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;



It does not take both to be condemned. One can disbelieve Jesus Christ without water baptism.

It takes both to be saved:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

It's amazing how the mormons keep adding to the requirements to be saved...belief, baptism and later on you will push works....yet works (other than baptism) are missing form Mark 16.....DESPITE the bible contradicting mormon belief by saying we are not justified by "works" in Eph 2.

 

[CrowCross]

So you think it shows your devotion to Christ to manipulate his words so that you can believe or not believe anything? If you take all the verse and construct a doctrine out of the whole instead of breaking it into pieces and discarding the parts you don't like, you are more likely to arrive at the truth.

What you are telling me is that if a person hears the Gospel...then reads John 3:16 and believes Jesus and the Gospel...they are not saved?
God will say...HAH!!!!....you missed Mark 16, you should have read that...sorry dude.

John 3:18 means nothing???
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3;36 means nothing???
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

John 6:40 means nothing???
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 11:25 means nothing???
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

....and that's just the book of John.

 

[CrowCross]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Take home point, as you mentioned:

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation.

 

[dberrie2020]

It's amazing how the mormons keep adding to the requirements to be saved...

You mean such as this?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

That's really amazing.

belief, baptism and later on you will push works....yet works (other than baptism) are missing form Mark 16.....DESPITE the bible contradicting mormon belief by saying we are not justified by "works" in Eph 2.

Such as this?

James 2:21---King James Version
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Ever wonder why the Biblical NT writers always have to rain on your parade?

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[CrowCross]

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

That's speaking of the tribulation....try again.

 

[dberrie2020]

That's speaking of the tribulation....try again.

It doesn't appear Jesus was limiting His testimony to the specific time you attribute it to:

Matthew 10:17-23---King James Version
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The fact is--all men will be judged according to their own works--no exceptions:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

[CrowCross]

It doesn't appear Jesus was limiting His testimony to the specific time you attribute it to:

Sure it does....the verses speak of judgement...which makes one ask...

Endures from what?
To the end of what?
Is saved from what?

Get out of your mormon Sunday School Bookand actually put your own thought into it.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Cor 3:10-15....ever read it?

No one ever said works were bad.

 

[organgrinder]

Take home point, as you mentioned:

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation.

This also demonstrates that dberrie and the LDS church do not understand what baptism is about. It is the public outward sign of the inner transformation that occurred when a person believed in Jesus. It signifies dying to self and the old life and rising to a new life. Baptism does not impart salvation. Belief does that. Christians should be baptized. Scripture shows that.

 

[CrowCross]

This also demonstrates that dberrie and the LDS church do not understand what baptism is about. It is the public outward sign of the inner transformation that occurred when a person believed in Jesus. It signifies dying to self and the old life and rising to a new life. Baptism does not impart salvation. Belief does that. Christians should be baptized. Scripture shows that.

I agree 100%.

If baptism was a requirement for salvation then the bible would have a chapter or two explaining it..how it works...how to perform it etc..

The mormons on the other hand have a belief in baptism and taken it upon themselves and come up with non-biblical instructions on how it is to be performed.
Thing is....only mormons can do it and be saved.

The following is their method.....

Two priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders witness each baptism to make sure it is performed properly. The baptism must be repeated if the words are not spoken exactly as given in Doctrine and Covenants 20:73 or if part of the person’s body or clothing is not immersed completely. LDS source

Instructions for Performing a Baptism​

Under the direction of the presiding authority, a priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder may perform the ordinance of baptism. To do so, he:

1. Stands in the water with the person to be baptized.
2. Holds the person’s right wrist with his left hand (for convenience and safety); the person who is being baptized holds the priesthood holder’s left wrist with his or her left hand.
3. Raises his right arm to the square.
4. States the person’s full name and says, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:73).
5. Has the person hold his or her nose with the right hand (for convenience); then the priesthood holder places his right hand high on the person’s back and immerses the person completely, including the person’s clothing.
6. Helps the person come up out of the water.

If you didn't do it correctly...as the LDS says you must do...then you missed out on the Gospel of baptism.
What does this mean? If you are not a Mormon and baptized the correct way....you can't be saved.

Bascially the Mormon doctrine says if you are not a Mormon and their baptism gospel is not part of your salvation...you're lost.

 

[dberrie2020]

No one ever said works were bad.

That depends on what works one is referring to:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[dberrie2020]

This also demonstrates that dberrie and the LDS church do not understand what baptism is about.

Why isn't the explanation found in the Biblical NT good enough?

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.