Will Mormons answer our questions or shove them aside?

Mike McK said:
No. The Bible says the sheep continue to follow the shepherd. It's the goats who turn away. Lived on a farm about half my life. Never seen a sheep turn into a goat.

Yes. The Bible describes these seeds as tares, which Jesus compares to unsaved people.

The Bible is rarely convenient, but it's true.

People who made a profession of faith, but did not have saving faith.
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So someone could be appear to be following Jesus right now, but actually be unsaved, a rare, etc. correct?
 
Mike McK said:
No. The Bible says the sheep continue to follow the shepherd. It's the goats who turn away. Lived on a farm about half my life. Never seen a sheep turn into a goat.
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I've never seen a human turn into a sheep or a goat.

Mike McK said:
People who made a profession of faith, but did not have saving faith.
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Could you explain for us what the difference between a "profession of faith" and "saving faith" is?
 
dberrie2020 said:
Could you explain how one is made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and renewed--without being saved?
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Sure. They may have witnessed the works of the Holy Spirit, may have even been used by the Holy Spirit. The passage isn't really clear.
dberrie2020 said:
"fall away" from what?
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From the faith.
dberrie2020 said:
Which is usually the claim whenever the scriptures contradict the theology of the critics here.
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Or when somebody is dishonestly taking verses out of context, such as you and Aaron.
dberrie2020 said:
How are those who are washed--not saved?
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The same way the dog returns to his vomit. If a sow is washed, is it clean on the inside? Or just externally? I've helped my dad and my uncles butcher hogs, and I've dressed many feral hogs, but I can't say that I've ever washed a sow. But I'm pretty sure washing a sow only cleans the sow on the outside.
 
Mike McK said:
The Bible gives us four primary rules by which we can know we're saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification
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None of these things sounds like something that can be preserved in past tense, except for maybe #2.
 
Mike McK said:
The Bible gives us four primary rules by which we can know we're saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification
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I think it's also significant that sanctification is distinct from salvation.

How do you define "sanctification"? How does one become sanctified?
 
Aaron32 said:
I think it's also significant that sanctification is distinct from salvation.
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Of course. Salvation is justification. Sanctification follows justification.
Aaron32 said:
How do you define "sanctification"?
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Sanctification is the fruit of salvation. It’s the transforming process by which God’s people shed their past sinfulness and grow to reflect His holiness.
Aaron32 said:
How does one become sanctified?
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The Bible says we're sanctified by the Holy Spirit when we're saved and continue to be sanctified as we grow in Christ.
 
Mike McK said:
Of course. Salvation is justification. Sanctification follows justification.

Sanctification is the fruit of salvation. It’s the transforming process by which God’s people shed their past sinfulness and grow to reflect His holiness.

The Bible says we're sanctified by the Holy Spirit when we're saved and continue to be sanctified as we grow in Christ.
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How does one grow in Christ?
 
Mike McK said:
www.gty.org

Spiritual Growth, Part 1

I’m really going to kind of share my heart with you and just not worry about where we start or where we finish each night and work our way through what I believe to be the foundational thin
www.gty.org www.gty.org
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That's a great sermon. It gives an introductory background, but it looks like time ran out before he could actually get to the substance of answering the question: How do we grow spiritually. I'll need to look at parts 2, 3, and 4.

There were some really great one-liners, such as:
"You’re...perfect in Christ in your position, just not in your practice."
"Some of the most dangerous people in the world are immature Christians armed with a lot of information."

I might need to add that last one to my signature.
 
Ok, @Mike McK
You claim against myself and other mormons is: "Works are necessary to obtain 'status or positions'." And you provided several Mormon sources that they believe this.

We've determined that justification is distinct from sanctification. In Mormon-ese, I say the same thing distinguishing "Salvation" from "Exaltation"
I asked what sanctification is and you answered "we're saved and continue to be sanctified as we grow in Christ."
I asked how we grow in Christ, and you shared the 1 part of a 4 part sermon.

Well, I went through all the sermons, and after it establishes being grounded in the word, focus on glorifying God.
And then he expounds on the practical things to be done in glorifying God:
1) Confess Jesus as Lord​
2) Fix our attention on the glory of God​
a) preferring Him and His kingdom above all else. (no agenda, possession, plan, program, talent​
b) being content to do His will at any cost​
c) You will suffer when He suffers (be zealous) - be at pain when God is dishonored​
d) willing to be outdone in what we do as long as He receives the glory.​
3) Confess Sin - because you free God to chasten you in any way He chooses and never be thought to be unfair​
4) Trust Him​
a) Having faith like Abraham​
b) Trust He will provide everything you want: physically, emotionally, spiritually, economically, or whatever​
c) believe God in the midst of temptation​
5) Be fruitful​
a) action fruit: praise, leading someone to Christ, giving a gift to someone, or to the work of the Lord​
b) attitude fruit: love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control​
(Legalism: Action fruit without attitude fruit)​
6) Praising Him​
a) God’s wonderful works​
b) God’s attributes​
7) Prayer​
8) Unity​
9) Obedience ot God's word​
10) Proclaiming His word​
11) Moral Purity​
12) bringing others to Christ​

So clearly, if you feel this man represents the Bible and Christianity, it appears as if Christianity believes along with Mormonism that "Works are necessary to obtain the 'status' of being "sanctified." I will admit, I really liked as was reminded of the distinction on position with Christ being unchanged after we are saved.

One of my favorite lines is: "And as you focus on the glory of the Lord revealed in the Word, the Spirit will move you from one level of spiritual glory to another. "
It reminds me of 2 Ne 32:5 "For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do."
And transcending the "degrees of Glory" is what "the plan of salvation" is all about. (See D&C 93) I do believe that, culturally, Mormons have difficulty keeping the focus of glorifying God. Having said that, the doctrine isn't affected by the imperfection of the people.

Unfortunately, I believe there's a lot of misinformation about Mormonism because many leave the church when they are spiritual infants (as spoken about in Part 1), and the people that leave think they are mature on the merits of how long they were members, how much knowledge of Mormon references, or the level of activity in the Church. As the sermon states, these things are not what determines spiritual maturity. So, when I say ex-mormons don't understand the restored gospel the way I do, this is what I'm referring to.
 
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