Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife
- Thread starter Caroljeen
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SteveB
Well-known member
considering that everything that is defined as Jesus is based on what is written in the Bible, and the passage Paul's statement is describing is the entire old testament, your comment raises the question of whether you actually understand the concept.
Why Christ, not Scripture, is Our Ultimate Foundation - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
In a previous blog I argued that all our theological reflection must not only be Christ-centered, it must, most specifically, be cross-centered. I now want to begin to unpack some of the most important implications of adopting a cross-centered theological perspective. My ultimate goal is to show...reknew.org
Scripture: A Shaky Foundation for Why We Believe
Evangelicals typically ground the credibility of their faith on the inspiration of the Bible.
We wouldn't know anything about Jesus had it not been documented for us.
He'd simply be yet another unknown wannabe, buried in some undocumented history.
God was gracious enough to make sure that we have a complete history of Jesus and his life, death, and resurrection.
if God can't be trusted to ensure that the documents outlining the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are valid and reliable, he wouldn't be much of a god, let alone be worthy of worship, glory and honor.
He'd be little more than another petty tyrant, someone who is deceptive, unreliable...
trustworthiness is an extremely important issue here.
is he, or is not who he claims to be?
Did he, or did he not do what he claimed to have done?
Will he, or will he not do what he says he will?
Can he be trusted to ensure the integrity of the collection of documents he claims are his?
if not, how would we be able to actually know him, and how to make his acquaintance, and maintain a solid relationship with him?
seems like this idea you're presenting here makes for a completely untrustworthy god.
I'd say that it's actually downright dangerous. Anyone could come along, and say whatever they want and tag the statement- "God told me...." and you'd never have any way to corroborate their claims.
Based on the comment below, I'm wondering if you're understanding what you're stating.
It sounds like you're confused.
For me, and everyone I've been learning from over the past 46 years, we've learned that such challenges require further investigation and research.
Such things are never to be taken at face value and not followed up with Acts 17:11, and 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 mentality.
Or, simply keep reading the bible, over and over again until you get beyond your biases, and preconceptions.
Over the course of several reads, I finally saw the explanations of those "genocidal portraits" of YHVH.
The people who died in the flood did so because of their sin. Genesis 6:5.
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah perished because of their violence and evils. Genesis 13:13, and chapter 18.
The Egyptian people, because they mistreated the Israeli people who saved them from destruction. Genesis 15:13-14, chapter 41.
Had it not been for Joseph, Egypt would likely not even have been a footnote in history.
interesting...
I'm wondering if it's simply not having a living relationship with Jesus through the new birth.
The regeneration through the Holy Spirit is an absolute necessity for the Bible to make any sense. Paul tells us that in 1 Corinthians 2. It's impossible to life the Christian life apart from the power of God through the resurrection of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
From what I've read, Bart left because he couldn't handle the pain of the people who are perishing in their sin.
For some reason, he decided that it's better to perish with the unrighteous, than to preach Jesus, so the unrighteous can receive eternal life through repentance and faith in Jesus.
But the sentiments in the Gospels and Acts are much stronger for the nearness of the end times than against. Remember this was going to be a big event that does not pre-suppose that all nations couldn’t or wouldn’t be introduced to this coming reality in short order. No one needed to wait for the slow unfolding of the word that has taken 2000 years thus far and has still missed the mark. All the disciples and most of the Christian enclaves were preparing for it in their lifetime by selling their earthly goods and investing fully in the coming kingdom. That they did not know the hour did not presuppose it wasn’t near. They were asking what hour it would be because they were told it was near.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matt 16:28.
And try to be gentleman and not mess Caroljeen’s thread up too much with your usual verbose, irrelevant, off-topic bible-bombing.
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Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!! Give that man cookie.
SteveB
Well-known member
Pity you missed what happened shortly after Jesus made that statement.
Mat 17:1-8 WEB 1 After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was changed before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. 3 Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him. 4 Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces, and were very afraid. 7 Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up, and don’t be afraid.” 8 Lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus alone.
they saw Jesus in his glory.
Three of them.
James, Peter and John.
Quit spinning your wheels, trying to win arguments.
Make the effort to instead learn to understand.
Every follower of Jesus has been instructed in the Bible to anticipate the imminent return of Jesus in our respective lifetimes.
This does not mean that it was "supposed" to have taken place before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
I encourage you to learn more on the ancient Jewish Wedding customs and practices.
Ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and Yeshua's Second Coming | Messianic Bible
As we are soon approaching the traditional month for weddings, it is a great time to reflect on the wedding feast of the Lamb!
free.messianicbible.com
Weddings in Ancient Israel (And What They Say to Us, the Bride of Christ)
I blog extensively on topics from the Hebrew scriptures that have a vital impact on Christians today, and this is one that has proven c...
According to Ephesians 5, we who follow Jesus are his bride.
Thus, as Jesus is Jewish, we will follow the Hebrew/ancient Israeli wedding practices.
These are all defined in the gospels and letters .
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SteveB
Well-known member
?
Pity it's taken you so long to pay attention, and then only because it agrees with your biases and beliefs.
Let me guess.... you were hoping I'd be bothered by this?
It's part of the reason why we're instructed to take the time to learn and understand the importance of the bible, and why we believe.
I've been following Jesus for nearly 46 years now Nickel.
Steve, it looks like commented on something I specifically wrote, but your interacting with a blog post by Greg Boyd. I'm not going to respond to this. I posted it for 5wize to see. I didn't even expect him to respond to it. It was mostly to show how two different Christians who went to the same graduate school for theology can survive or lose their faith in Christ when they run into contradictions in the Bible.
Will we be reading about this in Ehrman's book?
SteveB
Well-known member
The idea of contradictory information seems to come back to limited awareness of the original conditions.
Not from their end, but from ours.
We're looking back at 1930 to 3500 year old information, and they were writing from the then present day, to a few years later.
I remember reading about Ehrman. Yes, he started with questions, but at a certain point he got stuck on the issue of people perishing in hell forever.
Seems his stuckness was a matter of not understanding why sin was to be judged.
I came out of the late 70's in the Jesus movement in Southern California.
That new movie- Jesus Revolution- describes it rather well.
I lived an utterly ungodly life and seeing my sin for what it was, indeed still is, is why my struggles are different.
I had no problem coming to Jesus as a savior and not just a religious man.
I still see my sin, and need for a savior, daily.
I read this instead since the link didn't work. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2012/08/review-of-richard-c-carrier-proving-history.html
Only someone straining way to hard to make the narrative resolve would think that the transfiguration is the coming of the kingdom.. The transfiguration only supports the identity of Jesus as God’s son and the messenger and mouth-piece of God. The oddness of a claim that an entire Generation will not see death before what?..... I go to the top of a mountain in a few days and talk to Abraham and Elijah? You need to give your brain a break. There must be a stress fracture in it after that contortion.Pity you missed what happened shortly after Jesus made that statement.
Mat 17:1-8 WEB 1 After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was changed before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. 3 Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him. 4 Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces, and were very afraid. 7 Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up, and don’t be afraid.” 8 Lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus alone.
they saw Jesus in his glory.
Three of them.
James, Peter and John.
Quit spinning your wheels, trying to win arguments.
Make the effort to instead learn to understand.
Every follower of Jesus has been instructed in the Bible to anticipate the imminent return of Jesus in our respective lifetimes.
This does not mean that it was "supposed" to have taken place before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
I encourage you to learn more on the ancient Jewish Wedding customs and practices.
Ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and Yeshua's Second Coming | Messianic Bible
As we are soon approaching the traditional month for weddings, it is a great time to reflect on the wedding feast of the Lamb!
Weddings in Ancient Israel (And What They Say to Us, the Bride of Christ)
I blog extensively on topics from the Hebrew scriptures that have a vital impact on Christians today, and this is one that has proven c...www.hhhistory.com
According to Ephesians 5, we who follow Jesus are his bride.
Thus, as Jesus is Jewish, we will follow the Hebrew/ancient Israeli wedding practices.
These are all defined in the gospels and letters .
I really don’t know where you get this stuff Steve. It most certainly isn’t from Biblical scholarship.... and more embarrassingly you make taunts about being right as if you think we’re not not going to follow up on your bible-bombs and find out you are just data dumping scripture you know too little about to be copy and pasting..
SteveB
Well-known member
I'm not the one who needs the gospel to be a false narrative to excuse yourself from culpability for your sin to escape the consequences for your sin.
just remember.... it's your eternity.
You want the truth?
Then get off your derriere and do what the rest of us who follow Jesus have done and are continuing to do.
Engage Jesus on his terms.
He was quite clear about this.
Joh 8:30-36 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
only..... sounds like a massive amount of evidence that Jesus is God's Son, and that God exists.
??
he never said an entire Generation.
he said- there are some of you who will not die until you see the Son of Man coming in his glory...
Mat 16:28 WEB Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”
There's nothing about an entire Generation.
Where are you getting this stuff?
it's definitely NOT from the bible.
Mat 17:1-8 WEB 1 After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was changed before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. 3 Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him. 4 Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces, and were very afraid. 7 Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up, and don’t be afraid.” 8 Lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus alone.
You're not very bright.
Pay attention to what is taking place.
You're not in the crowd.
You're not Peter, James, or John. You're nit Jesus.
This is not a massive crowd of people.
there are only 4 people who are involved here.
It's not about Pete, Jim, or John!
It's about Jesus and his being transfigured.
Pete thought it was an astonishing thing. He opened his mouth and stuck his foot in it.
God even stepped in and told Pete to shut up, and listen to what Jesus was saying.
Which is exactly why learning is so important.
it's called reading the bible for the purpose of understanding, learning and listening.
Something you would gain great benefit from by doing likewise.
I don't need scholarship here.
I simply read.
Reading the words on the page are far more useful than what you think and do.
Ignorance such as yours does develop its own self protection mechanisms by necessity.... so it can keep you isolated from the truth and breed more ignorance.
SteveB
Well-known member
So, instead of reading the bible, and learning to think for yourself, you read what others think about the bible, and let them tell you what they think, and wind up doing your thinking for you?
That's pretty sad.
That's like me letting my professors tell me what the textbooks say, but never actually reading them for myself.
Why would you do that for the bible, when there are literally hundreds of freely available apps online, and dozens, if not hundreds of websites that post the bible for free?
I don't know what world you live in, but the one I live in includes daily reading and prayer, talking with the Author, so I can better understand and make sense of it.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Says the guy who admitted:
"I changed my mind to agree with God's word on all things that He says matters"...
None of that brain fart above shows anybody how your chosen eschatology is true. You were schooled in the Bible on that count - by me - the one who never reads it I guess.
SteveB
Well-known member
So now you're telling me that I should only look at that single verse, in each gospel, and ignore the surrounding verses, which defines the meaning of that one set of verses?
Where did you learn to read?
I guarantee it was no American school.
Mat 24:32-44 WEB 32 “Now from the fig tree learn this parable: When its branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near. 33 Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that he is near, even at the doors. 34 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 “But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, 39 and they didn’t know until the flood came and took them all away, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Watch therefore, for you don’t know in what hour your Lord comes. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.
What does vs 32 say?
Are you acquainted with who the fig tree is in the Old Testament?
because his hearers were.
this article is a description, including bible verses showing that Israel is God's Fig Tree. The fig tree Jesus is referring to in vs 32.
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures 'the 'Vine,' the 'Fig-tree,' and the 'Olive,' stand for the fruitfulness of the land.'
www.blueletterbible.org
Thus, the generation that sees Israel "bud, blossom, and put forth the leaf", will not pass away until everything Jesus describes in his lecture on the end of the age comes to pass.
Mar 13:28-37 WEB 28 “Now from the fig tree, learn this parable. When the branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near; 29 even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors. 30 Most certainly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things happen. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “But of that day or that hour no one knows—not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Watch, keep alert, and pray; for you don’t know when the time is. 34 “It is like a man traveling to another country, having left his house and given authority to his servants, and to each one his work, and also commanded the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you don’t know when the lord of the house is coming—whether at evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning; 36 lest, coming suddenly, he might find you sleeping. 37 What I tell you, I tell all: Watch!”
Looks similar. He starts with the parable of the fig tree.
You're more than welcome to do your own word study. Make sure you read the surrounding verses on both sides of the verse referenced.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
"Fig" AND "tree" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.
www.blueletterbible.org
Luk 21:29-36 WEB 29 He told them a parable. “See the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see it and know by your own selves that the summer is already near. 31 Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God’s Kingdom is near. 32 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Darn! there's that fig tree reference again.
so....
do you want to actually learn, or do you only care about winning an argument?
SteveB
Well-known member
What's wrong tree?
Fail to take the context of my statement again?
Well, it only makes you the fool.
Keep smoking that whiskey bud! It's obviously destroying your mind.
Not sure what you were attempting to accomplish with that bible-bomb... It clearly states: "Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away,” all within the proper context of the entire ChapterSo now you're telling me that I should only look at that single verse, in each gospel, and ignore the surrounding verses, which defines the meaning of that one set of verses?
Where did you learn to read?
I guarantee it was no American school.
Mat 24:32-44 WEB 32 “Now from the fig tree learn this parable: When its branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near. 33 Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that he is near, even at the doors. 34 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 “But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, 39 and they didn’t know until the flood came and took them all away, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Watch therefore, for you don’t know in what hour your Lord comes. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.
What does vs 32 say?
Are you acquainted with who the fig tree is in the Old Testament?
because his hearers were.
this article is a description, including bible verses showing that Israel is God's Fig Tree. The fig tree Jesus is referring to in vs 32.
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures 'the 'Vine,' the 'Fig-tree,' and the 'Olive,' stand for the fruitfulness of the land.'
Thus, the generation that sees Israel "bud, blossom, and put forth the leaf", will not pass away until everything Jesus describes in his lecture on the end of the age comes to pass.
Mar 13:28-37 WEB 28 “Now from the fig tree, learn this parable. When the branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near; 29 even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors. 30 Most certainly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things happen. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “But of that day or that hour no one knows—not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Watch, keep alert, and pray; for you don’t know when the time is. 34 “It is like a man traveling to another country, having left his house and given authority to his servants, and to each one his work, and also commanded the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you don’t know when the lord of the house is coming—whether at evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning; 36 lest, coming suddenly, he might find you sleeping. 37 What I tell you, I tell all: Watch!”
Looks similar. He starts with the parable of the fig tree.
You're more than welcome to do your own word study. Make sure you read the surrounding verses on both sides of the verse referenced.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
"Fig" AND "tree" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.
Luk 21:29-36 WEB 29 He told them a parable. “See the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see it and know by your own selves that the summer is already near. 31 Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God’s Kingdom is near. 32 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Darn! there's that fig tree reference again.
so....
do you want to actually learn, or do you only care about winning an argument?
The rest of the post is you artificially pumping yourself up... rather sad and uncomfortable to read... seems desperate, lonely, “I like me!!! Who do you like?!!!
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