SteveB
Well-known member
Would you please provide a working link?Yes it was. Mixed something up.
Thank you.
Would you please provide a working link?Yes it was. Mixed something up.
considering that everything that is defined as Jesus is based on what is written in the Bible, and the passage Paul's statement is describing is the entire old testament, your comment raises the question of whether you actually understand the concept.Why Christ, not Scripture, is Our Ultimate Foundation - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
In a previous blog I argued that all our theological reflection must not only be Christ-centered, it must, most specifically, be cross-centered. I now want to begin to unpack some of the most important implications of adopting a cross-centered theological perspective. My ultimate goal is to show...reknew.orgScripture: A Shaky Foundation for Why We Believe
Evangelicals typically ground the credibility of their faith on the inspiration of the Bible.
if God can't be trusted to ensure that the documents outlining the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are valid and reliable, he wouldn't be much of a god, let alone be worthy of worship, glory and honor.If they were to become convinced that the Bible was not inspired, their faith would crumble.
I'd say that it's actually downright dangerous. Anyone could come along, and say whatever they want and tag the statement- "God told me...." and you'd never have any way to corroborate their claims.I think this posture is as unwise as it is unnecessary.
Based on the comment below, I'm wondering if you're understanding what you're stating.I want it to be clear at the start that I fully embrace Scripture as the “God-breathed” (theopneustos) Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16), and I believe that, if properly defined, it is “infallible.” I also believe that Scripture should be the foundation of what we believe. But I think it’s very mistaken to make Scripture the foundation of why we believe.[1]
For me, and everyone I've been learning from over the past 46 years, we've learned that such challenges require further investigation and research.If the reason you believe is anchored in your confidence that Scripture is “God-breathed,” then your faith can’t help but be threatened every time you encounter a discrepancy, an archeological problem, or a persuasive historical-critical argument that a portion of the biblical narrative may not be historically accurate.
Or, simply keep reading the bible, over and over again until you get beyond your biases, and preconceptions.Your faith may also be threatened every time you encounter material that is hard to accept as “God-breathed” — the genocidal portrait of Yahweh I discussed in my previous blog, for example.
When biblical inspiration is made this important, people are forced to go to extreme and sometimes even silly lengths to explain each and every one of the “encyclopedia” of “difficulties” one finds in Scripture (I’m alluding Gleason Archer’s apologetic book, New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties).
interesting...As has happened to so many others, throughout my seminary training this foundation became increasingly shaky and eventually collapsed. I know a number of former-evangelicals who completely lost their faith when they experienced this.
From what I've read, Bart left because he couldn't handle the pain of the people who are perishing in their sin.One is Bart Ehrman, who I’m sure many of you recognize as one of Christianity’s most well-known contemporary critics. He and I were in the doctoral program at Princeton Seminary at the same time, and we fell through our crumbling Scriptural foundation at roughly the same time and for many of the same reasons. But while Bart gradually fell into agnosticism, I fell onto a different and much more firm foundation. I fell into Christ.
in what way? Preteristically?
after the resurrection, the 12 asked Jesus if it was then time for the kingdom to be restored to Israel. Jesus made it clear- it is nit for you to know the times and seasons in the Father's care. Acts 1:7.
in his time.
Jesus was quite clear in the gospels,
The gospel of the kingdom must first be preached to all nations, THEN the end will come. Matthew 24:14
But the sentiments in the Gospels and Acts are much stronger for the nearness of the end times than against. Remember this was going to be a big event that does not pre-suppose that all nations couldn’t or wouldn’t be introduced to this coming reality in short order. No one needed to wait for the slow unfolding of the word that has taken 2000 years thus far and has still missed the mark. All the disciples and most of the Christian enclaves were preparing for it in their lifetime by selling their earthly goods and investing fully in the coming kingdom. That they did not know the hour did not presuppose it wasn’t near. They were asking what hour it would be because they were told it was near.from what I see on the https://joshuaproject.net/
page, only 60% of the world has heard.
So, let us know when the whole world hears.
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!! Give that man cookie.if God can't be trusted to ensure that the documents outlining the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are valid and reliable, he wouldn't be much of a god, let alone be worthy of worship, glory and honor.
He'd be little more than another petty tyrant, someone who is deceptive, unreliable...
Pity you missed what happened shortly after Jesus made that statement.But the sentiments in the Gospels and Acts are much stronger for the nearness of the end times than against. Remember this was going to be a big event that does not pre-suppose that all nations couldn’t or wouldn’t be introduced to this coming reality in short order. No one needed to wait for the slow unfolding of the word that has taken 2000 years thus far and has still missed the mark. All the disciples and most of the Christian enclaves were preparing for it in their lifetime by selling their earthly goods and investing fully in the coming kingdom. That they did not know the hour did not presuppose it wasn’t near. They were asking what hour it would be because they were told it was near.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matt 16:28.
Every follower of Jesus has been instructed in the Bible to anticipate the imminent return of Jesus in our respective lifetimes.And try to be gentleman and not mess Caroljeen’s thread up too much with your usual verbose, irrelevant, off-topic bible-bombing.
?Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!! Give that man cookie.
Steve, it looks like commented on something I specifically wrote, but your interacting with a blog post by Greg Boyd. I'm not going to respond to this. I posted it for 5wize to see. I didn't even expect him to respond to it. It was mostly to show how two different Christians who went to the same graduate school for theology can survive or lose their faith in Christ when they run into contradictions in the Bible.considering that everything that is defined as Jesus is based on what is written in the Bible, and the passage Paul's statement is describing is the entire old testament, your comment raises the question of whether you actually understand the concept.
We wouldn't know anything about Jesus had it not been documented for us.
He'd simply be yet another unknown wannabe, buried in some undocumented history.
God was gracious enough to make sure that we have a complete history of Jesus and his life, death, and resurrection.
if God can't be trusted to ensure that the documents outlining the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are valid and reliable, he wouldn't be much of a god, let alone be worthy of worship, glory and honor.
He'd be little more than another petty tyrant, someone who is deceptive, unreliable...
trustworthiness is an extremely important issue here.
is he, or is not who he claims to be?
Did he, or did he not do what he claimed to have done?
Will he, or will he not do what he says he will?
Can he be trusted to ensure the integrity of the collection of documents he claims are his?
if not, how would we be able to actually know him, and how to make his acquaintance, and maintain a solid relationship with him?
seems like this idea you're presenting here makes for a completely untrustworthy god.
I'd say that it's actually downright dangerous. Anyone could come along, and say whatever they want and tag the statement- "God told me...." and you'd never have any way to corroborate their claims.
Based on the comment below, I'm wondering if you're understanding what you're stating.
It sounds like you're confused.
For me, and everyone I've been learning from over the past 46 years, we've learned that such challenges require further investigation and research.
Such things are never to be taken at face value and not followed up with Acts 17:11, and 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 mentality.
Or, simply keep reading the bible, over and over again until you get beyond your biases, and preconceptions.
Over the course of several reads, I finally saw the explanations of those "genocidal portraits" of YHVH.
The people who died in the flood did so because of their sin. Genesis 6:5.
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah perished because of their violence and evils. Genesis 13:13, and chapter 18.
The Egyptian people, because they mistreated the Israeli people who saved them from destruction. Genesis 15:13-14, chapter 41.
Had it not been for Joseph, Egypt would likely not even have been a footnote in history.
interesting...
I'm wondering if it's simply not having a living relationship with Jesus through the new birth.
The regeneration through the Holy Spirit is an absolute necessity for the Bible to make any sense. Paul tells us that in 1 Corinthians 2. It's impossible to life the Christian life apart from the power of God through the resurrection of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
From what I've read, Bart left because he couldn't handle the pain of the people who are perishing in their sin.
For some reason, he decided that it's better to perish with the unrighteous, than to preach Jesus, so the unrighteous can receive eternal life through repentance and faith in Jesus.
Will we be reading about this in Ehrman's book?I only claimed there are strategic lies in the bible as the canon formed, and that I don’t trust the punchline as a result.
All cultures form a whole from the sum of its many disparate parts over time, and as I eluded to before, the Levant was ripe for cultural cross pollination as a result of it being on the strategic land path between the Balkans, Rome, Greece, the near east, and Egypt. The northern kingdom fell quickly as a result of that. The southern kingdom, Judea, held out longer as that path of conquest traveled to the north of them. But they had time to think about what was coming, and started to solidify a nationalistic rhetoric to stiffen the resolve of its people. That rhetoric was the advent of Canaan being a promise of God worth fighting for - the beginning of the OT Canon.
The idea of contradictory information seems to come back to limited awareness of the original conditions.Steve, it looks like commented on something I specifically wrote, but your interacting with a blog post by Greg Boyd. I'm not going to respond to this. I posted it for 5wize to see. I didn't even expect him to respond to it. It was mostly to show how two different Christians who went to the same graduate school for theology can survive or lose their faith in Christ when they run into contradictions in the Bible.
I read this instead since the link didn't work. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2012/08/review-of-richard-c-carrier-proving-history.html
Only someone straining way to hard to make the narrative resolve would think that the transfiguration is the coming of the kingdom.. The transfiguration only supports the identity of Jesus as God’s son and the messenger and mouth-piece of God. The oddness of a claim that an entire Generation will not see death before what?..... I go to the top of a mountain in a few days and talk to Abraham and Elijah? You need to give your brain a break. There must be a stress fracture in it after that contortion.Pity you missed what happened shortly after Jesus made that statement.
Mat 17:1-8 WEB 1 After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was changed before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. 3 Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him. 4 Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces, and were very afraid. 7 Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up, and don’t be afraid.” 8 Lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus alone.
they saw Jesus in his glory.
Three of them.
James, Peter and John.
Quit spinning your wheels, trying to win arguments.
Make the effort to instead learn to understand.
Every follower of Jesus has been instructed in the Bible to anticipate the imminent return of Jesus in our respective lifetimes.
This does not mean that it was "supposed" to have taken place before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
I encourage you to learn more on the ancient Jewish Wedding customs and practices.
Ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and Yeshua's Second Coming | Messianic Bible
As we are soon approaching the traditional month for weddings, it is a great time to reflect on the wedding feast of the Lamb!free.messianicbible.com
Weddings in Ancient Israel (And What They Say to Us, the Bride of Christ)
I blog extensively on topics from the Hebrew scriptures that have a vital impact on Christians today, and this is one that has proven c...www.hhhistory.com
According to Ephesians 5, we who follow Jesus are his bride.
Thus, as Jesus is Jewish, we will follow the Hebrew/ancient Israeli wedding practices.
These are all defined in the gospels and letters .
I'm not the one who needs the gospel to be a false narrative to excuse yourself from culpability for your sin to escape the consequences for your sin.Only someone straining way to hard to make the narrative resolve would think that the transfiguration is the coming of the kingdom..
only..... sounds like a massive amount of evidence that Jesus is God's Son, and that God exists.The transfiguration only supports the identity of Jesus as God’s son and the messenger and mouth-piece of God.
he never said an entire Generation.The oddness of a claim that an entire Generation will not see death before what?.....
I go to the top of a mountain in a few days and talk to Abraham and Elijah? You need to give your brain a break. There must be a stress fracture in it after that contortion.
Which is exactly why learning is so important.I really don’t know where you get this stuff Steve.
I don't need scholarship here.It most certainly isn’t from Biblical scholarship.... and more embarrassingly you make taunts about being right as if you think we’re not not going to follow up on your bible-bombs and find out you are just data dumping scripture you know too little about to be copy and pasting..
Ignorance such as yours does develop its own self protection mechanisms by necessity.... so it can keep you isolated from the truth and breed more ignorance.I don't need scholarship here.
Try Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32 scholar.he never said an entire Generation.
he said- there are some of you who will not die until you see the Son of Man coming in his glory...
Mat 16:28 WEB Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”
So, instead of reading the bible, and learning to think for yourself, you read what others think about the bible, and let them tell you what they think, and wind up doing your thinking for you?Ignorance such as yours does develop its own self protection mechanisms by necessity.... so it can keep you isolated from the truth and breed more ignorance.
Says the guy who admitted:and learning to think for yourself
None of that brain fart above shows anybody how your chosen eschatology is true. You were schooled in the Bible on that count - by me - the one who never reads it I guess.So, instead of reading the bible, and learning to think for yourself, you read what others think about the bible, and let them tell you what they think, and wind up doing your thinking for you?
That's pretty sad.
That's like me letting my professors tell me what the textbooks say, but never actually reading them for myself.
Why would you do that for the bible, when there are literally hundreds of freely available apps online, and dozens, if not hundreds of websites that post the bible for free?
I don't know what world you live in, but the one I live in includes daily reading and prayer, talking with the Author, so I can better understand and make sense of it.
So now you're telling me that I should only look at that single verse, in each gospel, and ignore the surrounding verses, which defines the meaning of that one set of verses?
What's wrong tree?Says the guy who admitted:
"I changed my mind to agree with God's word on all things that He says matters"...
Not sure what you were attempting to accomplish with that bible-bomb... It clearly states: "Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away,” all within the proper context of the entire ChapterSo now you're telling me that I should only look at that single verse, in each gospel, and ignore the surrounding verses, which defines the meaning of that one set of verses?
Where did you learn to read?
I guarantee it was no American school.
Mat 24:32-44 WEB 32 “Now from the fig tree learn this parable: When its branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near. 33 Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that he is near, even at the doors. 34 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 “But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, 39 and they didn’t know until the flood came and took them all away, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Watch therefore, for you don’t know in what hour your Lord comes. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.
What does vs 32 say?
Are you acquainted with who the fig tree is in the Old Testament?
because his hearers were.
this article is a description, including bible verses showing that Israel is God's Fig Tree. The fig tree Jesus is referring to in vs 32.
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources
Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures 'the 'Vine,' the 'Fig-tree,' and the 'Olive,' stand for the fruitfulness of the land.'www.blueletterbible.org
Thus, the generation that sees Israel "bud, blossom, and put forth the leaf", will not pass away until everything Jesus describes in his lecture on the end of the age comes to pass.
Mar 13:28-37 WEB 28 “Now from the fig tree, learn this parable. When the branch has now become tender and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near; 29 even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors. 30 Most certainly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things happen. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “But of that day or that hour no one knows—not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Watch, keep alert, and pray; for you don’t know when the time is. 34 “It is like a man traveling to another country, having left his house and given authority to his servants, and to each one his work, and also commanded the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you don’t know when the lord of the house is coming—whether at evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning; 36 lest, coming suddenly, he might find you sleeping. 37 What I tell you, I tell all: Watch!”
Looks similar. He starts with the parable of the fig tree.
You're more than welcome to do your own word study. Make sure you read the surrounding verses on both sides of the verse referenced.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
"Fig" AND "tree" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.www.blueletterbible.org
Luk 21:29-36 WEB 29 He told them a parable. “See the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see it and know by your own selves that the summer is already near. 31 Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God’s Kingdom is near. 32 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Darn! there's that fig tree reference again.
so....
do you want to actually learn, or do you only care about winning an argument?