Does God believe for us?

[Theo1689]

Choices according to the desires determined for us according to compatibilism

Compatibilism | Monergism



Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature,for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decreee.) Compatibilism | Monergism

and hard determinism

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. Beginners guide to free will

Now you're finally beginning to understand what the Bible teaches!
Congratulations!

 

[Theo1689]

Did you see where i stated any such thing?

If you don't hate God or doing it, why do you keep objecting to it?

however what you presented is biblically false

No, what YOU present is biblically false.

"You will deny any evidence; scripture or otherwise for the sake of your theology."

 

[Theo1689]

edit

No, it's not.
You don't speak for God.
And you are not the final authority on what is "unbiblical".

edit

Again you're harassing me and uncharitably goading me into arguing with you, and then falsely claiming "victory!" when I obey my Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:6).
You should be ashamed of yourself!

 

[Theo1689]

edit

It is what Calvinism BIBLICALLY teaches.

edit

... because you constantly refuse to accept correction and only respond with insults and misrepresentations.

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Yes, we choose.

edit

You are the one who is incorrect.

Do you see how much of a waste of time this is?
This is why mature, grown-up Christians, "agree to disagree".
I'm a mature, grown-up Christian.
I say, "let's agree to disagree".
What do you say?
Are you a mature, grown-up Christian?

 

[fltom]

It is what Calvinism BIBLICALLY teaches.



... because you constantly refuse to accept correction and only respond with insults and misrepresentations.

Er you have actually address rebuttal and not refuse and run away to do that

Yes, we choose.



No, I am already correct.
You are the one who is incorrect.

Do you see how much of a waste of time this is?
This is why mature, grown-up Christians, "agree to disagree".
I'm a mature, grown-up Christian.
I say, "let's agree to disagree".
What do you say?
Are you a mature, grown-up Christian?

There is no free choice

what you have is a determined response

 

[Theo1689]

There is no free choice

So Tom "obviously" denies man has "free choice".

Calvinists do NOT deny "free choice".

I'm glad we've finally got that settled.

 

[fltom]

So Tom "obviously" denies man has "free choice".

Calvinists do NOT deny "free choice".

I'm glad we've finally got that settled.

No Tom holds calvinism denies man has a free choice

and teaches a determined choice

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining Beginners guide to free will john Pipers website

Some are consistent with their determinism

and others try to make determinism compatible with free will

Compatibilism | Monergism



Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature,for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decreee.) Compatibilism | Monergism

and yet even then it is denied compatibilism teaches man has a free will

and still others will claim a determined will can be a free will

But none of them claim men can do other than what was determined for them to do

 

[Theo1689]

No Tom holds calvinism denies man has a free choice

Sorry, that's not how it works.
If you can claim that WE don't believe what we actually DO believe, then neither do YOU have any right to object or whine when WE claim you don't believe what you actually believe.
Double standards much?

You are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches.
There is no denying it.
It is obvious to all.
And you refuse to accept correction, you simply try to REDEFINE Calvinism into something else (1) so you can easily attack your worthless straw-men, and (2) so you can deny ever being wrong on anything on Earth.

 

[fltom]

Er I just quoted Calvinist sources denying free will

from John Pipers website and monergism .com

are you denying they are Calvinist sources?

You cannot say we as some clearly deny free will

some do try to inconsistently affirm free will but their idea of free will is a determined will

and some will flip back and forth depending on context

a simple search on free will yields your post

the idea of an eternally immutable divine will​

"So you're admitting that "free will" is unBiblical. That's a good start."

• Theo1689
• Post #18
• Yesterday at 6:28 AM
• Forum: Arminianism & Calvinism

the idea of an eternally immutable divine will

The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Just to clarify what you believe… Are you saying (A) God does NOT have an eternally...

forums.carm.org

In any case none teach

there is an option to do other than what was determined

according to that Judas had no other option than to do what he did







others

PS elsewhere you deny free will

the idea of an eternally immutable divine will

The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Just to clarify what you believe… Are you saying (A) God does NOT have an eternally...

forums.carm.org

so how do you claim Judas acted freely here

 

[Tercon]

PS elsewhere you deny free will

the idea of an eternally immutable divine will

The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Just to clarify what you believe… Are you saying (A) God does NOT have an eternally...

forums.carm.org

so how do you claim Judas acted freely here

Can one have "free will" and be a slave to sin at the same time?

 

[fltom]

Can one have "free will" and be a slave to sin at the same time?

yes

free will is the ability to act with the constraints of your nature without external control

 

[Tercon]

yes

free will is the ability to act with the constraints of your nature without external control

Then you are conflating "free will" and slavery to sin. You seem to saying that "free will" is the ability to choose your own demise.

 

[fltom]

Then you are conflating "free will" and slavery to sin. You seem to saying that "free will" is the ability to choose your own demise.

nope not what I am saying

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism


The first tenet of soft libertarianism is ultimate responsibility (UR).

UR implies the second tenet: agent causation (AC).

After establishing the tenets of UR and AC, then and only then are we
ready to consider the third tenet: the principle of alternative possibilities (AP).

The fourth tenet of soft libertarianism is the recognition of will-setting
moments.

The fifth tenet of soft libertarianism is the distinction between the two types
of ability: freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity.

 

[Tercon]

nope not what I am saying

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism


The first tenet of soft libertarianism is ultimate responsibility (UR).

UR implies the second tenet: agent causation (AC).

After establishing the tenets of UR and AC, then and only then are we
ready to consider the third tenet: the principle of alternative possibilities (AP).

The fourth tenet of soft libertarianism is the recognition of will-setting
moments.

The fifth tenet of soft libertarianism is the distinction between the two types
of ability: freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity.

Okay then you are conflating "The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism" and ability to choose your own demise. As you have nothing until God makes you believe.

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

[fltom]

Okay then you are conflating "The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism" and ability to choose your own demise. As you have nothing until God makes you believe.

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Sorry God does not irresistibly unilaterally make you believe

that is not scriptural

 

[fltom]

Then how did you get saved if God didn't cause you to believe?

And if you caused yourself to believe, then you saved yourself. That's why you believe all the lies about yourself, the "faith" you have is of yourself and not God. You don't know how God is God do you?

Actually it is your illogical narrative that isn't biblical.

God sent the word and some believe

but the issue is the type of cause

Had God not provided revelation men could not believe the gospel

having had revealed it however man can now believe without God irresistibly unilateally infusing faith

 

[Tercon]

God sent the word and some believe

God became a man so we could believe as He believes and become a child of God.

but the issue is the type of cause

Belief is what the cause and means by which God uses to make His truth and reality known.

Had God not provided revelation men could not believe the gospel

Non Sequitur, as you can't have revelation without belief.

having had revealed it however man can now believe without God irresistibly unilateally infusing faith

Belief in God's reality is a gift of God and unattainable without God drawing one to their knees.

And the reason this isn't realized in and by you is because of your unbelief.

 

[fltom]

God became a man so we could believe as He believes and become a child of God.



Belief is what the cause and means by which God uses to make His truth and reality known.



Non Sequitur, as you can't have revelation without belief.

False

Can can reveal his truth anfd men can reject it. It does not mean the truth was not revealed

Belief in God's reality is a gift of God and unattainable without God drawing one to their knees.

And the reason this isn't realized in and by you is because of your unbelief.

Belief that God exists

Romans 1:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Manfred]

Fantasy

I have no one on ignore . And it is not difficult to address his ops. Rather it appears difficult for him to address rebuttal.

Vanity

I was not referring to you

 

[Manfred]

conflating again I see-

CREATED everything.

things that happen, events are not creation.

and yes refuting you and calvinism is WAY TO EASY for me lol.

next.........

hope this helps !!!

This guest poster thinks that God has lost control and random events surprise Him.

Wake up and smell the roses. There are no "random events" when it comes to God.

Thank you for displaying your unbelief again for all to see.
You are your own worst enemy.