Thanks for the link. It, brain fizz, sounds like a condescending name for emergence, the emergent property of the mind and consciousness that result from brain activity. Its viewed as a temporary quality and there is no lasting "you",
Majority of scholars? Who, and where?
- Thread starter SteveB
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Guess what? I believe that you believed in God at one time, unlike you believing that I was never a true atheist.
Thank you for your response.
The brain fizz argument that you and @Whatsisface associate with C. S. Lewis is usually called the argument from reason.
"Brain fizz"is a good descriptor.
Whatsisface
Well-known member
But as you say, it can be used with condescension and certainly has been by Sye Ten Bruggencate who uses, or used to use, the argument.
Matt Slick also has used it at times with less than a measured modesty.
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I also have to disagree with @Caroljeen about it being an accurate descriptor. The brain does not fizz. It's pejorative rather than literally accurate.
I can remember "brain fizz".
I expected that!
Seriously, the brain producing something other than itself to account for consciousness...I think the fizz of a soda or the foam of a beer creates an interesting analogy.
I don't think there's anything wrong with using analogies or poetic imagery in science, as long as we don't overdo it.
I am reminded of Penn State meteorologist Alistair Fraser's Bad Science pages. He writes:
“Air hates to be crowded, and when compressed it will try to escape to an area of lower pressure.”
This is what a teacher at the University of California at Davis suggests is one of the “simple facts” which intermediate students should master. Apart from the disturbing realization that the author apparently does not distinguish between pressure and density, there is the sad business of a post-medieval university proffering animism as science to children. Mind you, the air’s hate, if thwarted, might well lead to desperation, as is explained at the University of Texas at Dallas .
“the atmosphere tries more desparately [sic] to escape the decreasing volume”
Maybe these teachers would also recommend that the atmosphere seek professional counseling so as to help it control its psychoses, and if so, from whom? the ocean? the mountains? or, maybe the Department of Animistic Psychiatry at one of their own universities?
I am reminded of Penn State meteorologist Alistair Fraser's Bad Science pages. He writes:
“Air hates to be crowded, and when compressed it will try to escape to an area of lower pressure.”
This is what a teacher at the University of California at Davis suggests is one of the “simple facts” which intermediate students should master. Apart from the disturbing realization that the author apparently does not distinguish between pressure and density, there is the sad business of a post-medieval university proffering animism as science to children. Mind you, the air’s hate, if thwarted, might well lead to desperation, as is explained at the University of Texas at Dallas .
“the atmosphere tries more desparately [sic] to escape the decreasing volume”
Maybe these teachers would also recommend that the atmosphere seek professional counseling so as to help it control its psychoses, and if so, from whom? the ocean? the mountains? or, maybe the Department of Animistic Psychiatry at one of their own universities?
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Problems with the argument include, it has never been demonstrated conclusively that "brain fizz"(whatever that means, as it's never fully explained) would pertain under naturalism or determinism.
Theists who use the argument don't think brain fizz actually pertains which means that atheist's minds are just as capable of proper inference as theists, so their ideas can't be dismissed as brain fizz.
How is it analogous when belief is not physical in nature?
SteveB
Well-known member
The Bible is indeed YHVH's Word to the human race.
You however have repeatedly rejected it as YHVH's Word, as you state at the bottom of this post I'm responding to.
The curious thing is, you will never actually know that it's his word until you obey it.
He tells us in psalm 138:2,
YHVH exalts his word above his name.
Jesus said that you will be his follower, if you keep his teachings. He further stated that he would come and make their home with you if you keep his teachings.
Psa 138:2 WEB I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your Name for your loving kindness and for your truth; for you have exalted your Name and your Word above all.
Joh 8:31-32 WEB 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
so, seeing that you continue to refuse to engage him on his terms, just what do you think that you'll achieve here?
and your opinion is based on what you refuse to do. I.e., inexperience.
it's your prerogative. If you don't care to actually know the truth, then keep going the way you're going. The day will come in some as yet unknown future that you'll die.
if you refuse to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus, then one picosecond following your death, you'll realize that you really screwed yourself. And you'll forever be stuck, with no hope of escape.
but hey! You're far more intelligent than I gave you credit for.
you obviously know how to accurately discern truth simply by sitting on your thumb, and spinning around in circles, giving yourself a rectal cleansing.
Clearly a sign of superior intellect.
actually you are choosing to be in the perishing crowd. Your unbelief that such a crowd exists is irrelevant, and doesn't require you to believe anything.
your unbelief is what places you in that crowd.
Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
but, again, you're obviously far superior in your intellectual prowess than i could ever imagine, so you have deluded yourself into believing that as long as you don't engage in something that you don't think is true, you're in a safe position and condition.
I don't need to rationalise anything.
It's common sense here.
The only way to know something is true or not is to act on it.
nope. What i think is truth, i was to to learn this by acting on what I was learning.
Granted, I was taught this growing up in my family.
I was taught that the only way to know truth is by action.
nope. I have been observing that the things i previously believed to be true wiped out by acting on what Jesus said, and what YHVH said.
You are however bringing a curious point to bear. In your world, as you're describing your opinions to me, it's not possible to learn anything new. You can only believe what you were told by others, but not allowed to act on.
How did you learn to use the computer, or anything else you do in life?
that is your opinion.
It's quite curious that a word search turns up the number of times key phrases which challenge your opinion.
Yahweh say
1342 verses found.
Yahweh said
891 verses found
Jesus say, 78 verses found
Jesus said 269 verses found.
So.... you are indeed entitled to your beliefs.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
But let's do it this way.
Are you willing to bet your life that the Bible is wrong?
How much is your life worth to you?
Eternity is an exceedingly long time to live with the consequences of being wrong.
Especially when YHVH has provided the solution to the problem, and has deemed you worth giving his only begotten son to pay the full penalty for your sin against him and your fellow humans.
Isa 46:10 WEB I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. I say: My counsel will stand, and I will do all that I please.
actually, you can.
You believe all kinds of things people tell you, and you never actually corroborate what they tell you. To me that's insane!
Jesus said that he'll corroborate what he's taught, when you do what he says.
Come and see for yourself.
I don't dismiss your ideas as brain fizz because I believe your mind is immaterial just like mine.
I just don't believe that the mind emerges from the brain.
I'm not sure if atheists believe that brain fizz (thoughts, reasoning, ideas, beliefs, etc) equate to immaterial products of the brain.
That's why you shouldn't pretend that belief can be equated to physical (fizzing) sounds, when in reality belief is completely immaterial, but it is still necessarily required in order to make the truth and reality known.
SteveB
Well-known member
It actually starts in Genesis 1:1The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.
What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? How is it not a contradiction for God to be both three and one?www.desiringgod.org
The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father. 
The Doctrine of the Trinity: No Christianity Without It
If any doctrine makes Christianity Christian, then surely it is the doctrine of the Trinity. The three great ecumenical creeds—the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed—are all structured around our three in one God, underlying the essential importance of Trinitarian...www.thegospelcoalition.org
The doctrine of the Trinity, simply stated, is as follows: The Bible teaches that there is one eternal God who is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. He is the only God that exists. However, within the nature of this one God are three persons, or three centers of consciousness - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal. They are also distinguishable or distinct from one another. These three distinct Persons are the one God. Everything that is true about God is true about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
One of the most important doctrines of the Christian faith is that of the Trinity. From Scripture we learn that God, by nature is a Triune Being or Trinity.www.blueletterbible.org
What do you think it is?
Can you point me to verses in the Bible that indicate this concept of the trinity, rather than just saying the three components exist?
Then I look forward to you enlightening me.
Good for you. You will be in a great position to address this issue, right?
So go find the verses that indicate the doctrine of the trinity, and not just the existence of the three components.
See above.
Now your turn. Describe what you think the trinity is.
In the beginning, God.....
In the Hebrew,
Bereshith bara elohim.
The -im suffix in the Hebrew is a pluralization of the word.
El is the word, God.
Elohim is the word Gods.
Thus from the very first sentence, God is showing himself as more than an absolute Singularity.
I've previously showed that God's Spirit hovered on the surface of the deep, in Genesis 1:2.
In Genesis 1:26, God says,
Let us make man in our image and likeness....
In Genesis 11:7, God again says
Let us....
In Deuteronomy 6:4, the great confession of all Jewish people who believe in YHVH,
Shma Yisrael
YHVH elohenu
YHVH echad
There are two words for the number one in Hebrew.
Echad
Yachid
Both exist in the Bible.
Echad is used in Genesis 2, where the man and the woman shall be one flesh.
It's used in Genesis 11, where it says that the people building the tower of Babel are as one people.
3 articles that describe the concept of echad.
WORD STUDY – ONE, ECHAD OR YACHID
WORD STUDY – ONE, ECHAD OR YACHID Deuteronomy 6:4: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:” “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than dreamt of in your philo…
www.chaimbentorah.com
Yachid vs Echad: A Battle for the Trinity
As many never knew, at least I had never heard of the dispute, there is a battle for the definition of the trinity, and it is more heated than you may think. Is God "Yachid" or "Echad" in...
jroeloffs.weebly.com
Yachid is an absolute Singularity.
One. There's one pencil, one penny, one sun, one moon. If you're in the room by yourself, then you are yachid in that room.
The concept of a pluralized unity is found everywhere in life.
I have an apple tree. It has dozens of apples on it. It's one apple tree.
My wife and I are one family. There's my wife and I.
In mathematics, there's the matrices.
A 3 x 3 matrix as a unity matrix is
[ 1 0 0 | 0 1 0 | 0 0 1 ]
There are N x N unity matrices, which have N x N elements.
[ 1 0 0 0 ..... n | 0 1 0 0 .... n | 0 0 1 ....... n | ....n... | 0 ...n... 1 ]
We live in a solar system.
It is one solar system that has several elements.
A sun, at least 8 planets, and several planets have multiple moons.
We learn in the new testament by Jesus himself that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Notice in Matthew 28:18-20, he doesn't say,
Baptizing them in the names (plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
He says
Baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As you have several websites that detail the Triune nature of YHVH, I won't bother rehashing clearly described ideas, and verses.
YHVH is
Father
Son
Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Son, nor is he the Holy Spirit.
The Son, Jesus, is not the Father, nor is he the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is he the Son.
The Father is God.
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are YHVH.
As described in the various articles, each have their own respective duties, responsibilities, activities.
One description states...
The Father Calls/Draws John 6:44
The Son Saves John 6:37
The Holy Spirit regenerates Titus 3:5
They never act at odds against each other.
They never haggle with each other. They never contradict each other, regardless of what someone says.
Everything that Jesus taught, came directly from the Father,
Joh 5:19 WEB Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
Joh 12:49-50 WEB 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me gave me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.”
And everything that Jesus has given us, The Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us.
Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.
so, when the term,
Trinity
Is discussed amongst Jesus followers, we're talking about something quite simple, yet infinitely beyond the comprehension of the human race.
And since you're consistently, and repeatedly rejecting the gospel of Jesus, I have to say...
what makes you think you can understand eternal things, when you can't understand natural things?
Joh 3:11-12 WEB 11 Most certainly I tell you, we speak that which we know and testify of that which we have seen, and you don’t receive our witness. 12 If I told you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
1Co 2:9-16 WEB 9 But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except God’s Spirit. 12 But we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. 14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.
You do not have the Spirit of truth and God in you, so you cannot have the mind of Christ. And as such, these things are beyond your faculty to understand.
Or, in simpler terms...
this is a family matter.
When you become a family member, YHVH will give you exactly what Jesus says he would.
Especially since it's written,
Joh 6:45 WEB It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father and has learned, comes to me.
i.e., the prophet being,
Isa 54:13 WEB All your children will be taught by Yahweh, and your children’s peace will be great.
Tiburon
Well-known member
Why are you so angry?
Tiburon
Well-known member
"true atheist" is just my personal take on it. I hope you didn't take it as belittling your experience.
Kind of... I must have been deluding myself to think I was an atheist, right? Stupidly telling my devout Catholic grandmother that there was no God and being rude to Christians who tried to witness to me about their faith in God.
Honestly, being an atheist wasn't a great experience now that I look back on it and compare it to knowing God.
Tiburon
Well-known member
If you thought you were an atheist then I'd say you were an atheist.
My gripe is with theists who say "I used to be and atheist" as part of their coming to God story, as if they had previously arrived at atheism through an honest appraisal of the arguments, and then come to the "truth". When in reality, prior to becoming theist, they hadn't given the question of God much thought.