LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Bonnie]

Chuckle, note the stone in the hat was not mentioned but this important point was made:

Chuckle, chuckle, did you not see what was written on your very own church's official website?

A Peaceful Heart

A Peaceful Heart

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Mormon. To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.”

Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

Martin Harris said that on the seer stone “sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim AND the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength.

 

[Markk]

"Prophet Joseph Smith to clarify the meaning of the text, not to change it. This was his right as translator of the book."

Where did you quote that from? Who said that?

EDIT...I just read a post above you quoted it from FAIR, so who wrote that from FAIR and why do just believe that at face value?

 

[Richard7]

Where did you quote that from? Who said that?

EDIT...I just read a post above you quoted it from FAIR, so who wrote that from FAIR and why do just believe that at face value?

ldsscriptureteachings.org .... not allowed to link my sources...why would I not believe it, you still believe a rock in a hat, a solid rock not even transparent could possibly used to translate... I know you don't actually believe that, but common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc.

 

[Richard7]

Chuckle, chuckle, did you not see what was written on your very own church's official website?

A Peaceful Heart

A Peaceful Heart

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Yet JS and Cowdrey stated it was the Urim and Thummim. Two first hand accounts... chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

You missed the point, Ralf. You asked me for one witness that said it had to be written down correctly. But you had already posted that yourself. Do you even think about what you write?

Chuckle, note the stone in the hat was not mentioned but this important point was made:

"but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

Reply

 

[Magdalena]

Chuckle, note the stone in the hat was not mentioned but this important point was made:


Reply

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The conversation was the fact that it had to be written down correctly before the words would disappear. When I stated that, you challenged me to produce one witness who ever said it. But you had already posted that in one of your arguments. So which is it, Ralf? Do you want to continue to argue that no one ever said that first hand? Or do you want to retract your use of that quote? You pick something out of the air to try to prove your own arguments, but then backtrack and disown it when that same thing proves you wrong.

Joseph Smith didn’t translate anything. The words showed up in English, he just read the English words, and they didn’t disappear until they were written down correctly. According to you and your church, that is what happened. You posted the quote yourself.

 

[Markk]

ldsscriptureteachings.org .... not allowed to link my sources...why would I not believe it, you still believe a rock in a hat, a solid rock not even transparent could possibly used to translate... I know you don't actually believe that, but common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc.

You shouldn't believe it because it conflicts with the church's teaching.

Then President Nelson, in your opinion, does not have any common sense?

You are allowed to cite your sources. Linking and citations are two different ways to source.

On a scale of 1-10...where is Nelson at in regard to this topic? And why?

 

[Bonnie]

Yet JS and Cowdrey stated it was the Urim and Thummim. Two first hand accounts... chuckle.

Chuckle, chuckle, guffaw, snort--! But your church's very own website wrote the following, which I quoted from, and linked to:

Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown ROCK for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

Martin Harris said that on the seer STONE sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say ‘written;’ and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

Is your church lying about the stone, chuckle, chuckle? Wasn't Martin Harris one of the scribes who wrote down what Smith supposedly saw written on the seer stone? Isn't his testimony a first hand account?

Sorry about the format. I am on my phone and it does that sometimes.

 

[Richard7]

You shouldn't believe it because it conflicts with the church's teaching.

Seer stone in a hat is not doctrine, neither is the location of the Nephites and Lamanites.... immaterial to my salvation...

Then President Nelson, in your opinion, does not have any common sense?

Common sense is nothing more then personal reflection Markk. Researchers, historians, liberals and conservatives all can claim to have common sense and yet be wrong. Our Prophets and seers are given keys and powers I'm not privy too. I can have a different opinion on anything except for any revelation which comes from God through his prophets. I still can ask for confirmation of any revelation to validate and confirm for myself.

You are allowed to cite your sources. Linking and citations are two different ways to source.

On a scale of 1-10...where is Nelson at in regard to this topic? And why?

CARM Rule: You are not allowed to have links to unofficial Mormon websites in your post, ONLY to the official LDS website and BYU.
My source citation are now the author of any of my post, who site I go to is off limits and don't have to site it anymore.

 

[Richard7]

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The conversation was the fact that it had to be written down correctly before the words would disappear. When I stated that, you challenged me to produce one witness who ever said it. But you had already posted that in one of your arguments. So which is it, Ralf? Do you want to continue to argue that no one ever said that first hand? Or do you want to retract your use of that quote? You pick something out of the air to try to prove your own arguments, but then backtrack and disown it when that same thing proves you wrong.

Joseph Smith didn’t translate anything. The words showed up in English, he just read the English words, and they didn’t disappear until they were written down correctly. According to you and your church, that is what happened. You posted the quote yourself.

My Point Magdalena was that the progressives and revisionist made claims that JS did not need to use the plates for translation and I just showed the following.... "so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

 

[Markk]

We shall see Markk, siting no evidence or quote from me you have just made up fabrication and know it...how desperate you are getting Markk, you're better than this... shameful post.

Ralf, you said today, quote" "common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"

Elder nelson taught...

And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position.

To me, it's like having my mobile phone in my hand. And I can get messages on it that you can't see. That's true. And they had nothing like that. So it's just the gift and power of God, how he was able to do that in that period of time.

How is what I wrote shameful? He taught it and you implied anyone that would believe this has no common sense.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, you said today, quote" "common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"

Elder nelson taught...


How is what I wrote shameful? He taught it and you implied anyone that would believe this has no common sense.

You make up a fabrication about me Markk and the above is nothing but you backpedaling.. you should apologize for the disinformation.

 

[Markk]

Seer stone in a hat is not doctrine, neither is the location of the Nephites and Lamanites.... immaterial to my salvation...

Fine, then just say you don't believe what the church teaches on this. You certainlt defended the traditional narrative, and now that it has been shown to be false, you just poo poo the true history. Again fine, but don't go after members that believe it is important and tell the truth and deal with it.

Common sense is nothing more then personal reflection Markk. Researchers, historians, liberals and conservatives all can claim to have common sense and yet be wrong. Our Prophets and seers are given keys and powers I'm not privy too. I can have a different opinion on anything except for any revelation which comes from God through his prophets. I still can ask for confirmation of any revelation to validate and confirm for myself.

Again, you can believe what you like, but the church teaches that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in his hat, interchangeably with the interpreters. It is just a fact.

Your position is no longer a church teaching, and it does not stand up to the firsthand accounts of how the BoM was translated. And what is maybe a bigger issue is that it was not even translated, it was transposed, in that the plates by al reliable accounts were either covered or out of sight.

How do you know they are given keys...they could clear this up with one teaching at GC There are so many valid hard and fair questions, that if they were prophets and apostles, they could address them. But they don't. They leave people like you hanging.

CARM Rule: You are not allowed to have links to unofficial Mormon websites in your post, ONLY to the official LDS website and BYU.
My source citation are now the author of any of my post, who site I go to is off limits and don't have to site it anymore.

Ralf, just cut and paste the link, delete the period, and type in "dot." That is okay to do per the mediators...example

LDSdotorg instead of LDS.org

It will help folks follow your points.

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[Markk]

You make up a fabrication about me Markk and the above is nothing but you backpedaling.. you should apologize for the disinformation.

Ralf..LOL you wrote ..." common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"...

Yet, the church teaches it was a solid rock, owns the rock, has exhibits in the LDS Museum of the solid Rock, and teaches it was used in a similar way as a cell phone.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf​

June 21, 2016 ·

Not long ago, the Church published photos and background information on seer stones. People have asked me, “Do you really believe that Joseph Smith translated with seer stones? How would something like this be possible?” And I answer, “Yes! That is exactly what I believe.” This was done as Joseph said: by the gift and power of God.

In reality, most of us use a kind of “seer stone” every day. My mobile phone is like a “seer stone.” I can get the collected knowledge of the world through a few little inputs. I can take a photo or a video with my phone and share it with family on the other side of our planet. I can even translate anything into or from many different languages!

If I can do this with my phone, if human beings can do this with their phones or other devices, who are we to say that God could not help Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration, with his translation work? If it is possible for me to access the knowledge of the world through my phone, who can question that seer stones are impossible for God?

Many religions have objects, places, and events that are sacred to them. We respect the sacred beliefs of other religions and hope to be respected for our own beliefs and what is sacred to us. We should never be arrogant, but rather polite and humble. We still should have a natural confidence, because this is the Church of Jesus Christ.
See less

Click Here Ralf

What about that is untrue Ralf?

 

[Markk]

A BYU professor teaching on the BoM.

 

[Richard7]

Fine, then just say you don't believe what the church teaches on this. You certainlt defended the traditional narrative, and now that it has been shown to be false, you just poo poo the true history. Again fine, but don't go after members that believe it is important and tell the truth and deal with it.

I believe in the Doctrine, no man has the answers to all things.

Again, you can believe what you like, but the church teaches that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in his hat, interchangeably with the interpreters. It is just a fact.

Yes, it teaches it and uses the disclaimer that there are many different accounts, which as we have debated is very true...

Your position is no longer a church teaching, and it does not stand up to the firsthand accounts of how the BoM was translated. And what is maybe a bigger issue is that it was not even translated, it was transposed, in that the plates by al reliable accounts were either covered or out of sight.

Yep! that is one account and then others claim he had the plates always in front of him... I believe JS and Cowdery, the two who were involved the most in the translation...

How do you know they are given keys...they could clear this up with one teaching at GC There are so many valid hard and fair questions, that if they were prophets and apostles, they could address them. But they don't. They leave people like you hanging.

Well, we still don't know a lot of things Markk, the sealed plates have not been translated, we don't know where the Book of Mormon took place, wish we still had the scrolls of the Book of Abraham, so many issues still need to come to light and they will...

Ralf, just cut and paste the link, delete the period, and type in "dot." That is okay to do per the mediators...example

LDSdotorg instead of LDS.org

It will help folks follow your points.

Like Reply
Report

Thx.

 

[Markk]

Dan Peterson wrote in the Deseret News.

Consider a smartphone or e-reader, for instance. Their screens are very difficult to read out in the sunlight and need to be shaded. Or consider your personal computer. You probably don’t place it directly in front of a window where bright light will be streaming into your face. You need contrasting darkness so that you can see the screen without strain, and especially so if you’ll be working on it for lengthy periods. Otherwise, your eyes will tire and your head will ache.

Now consider Joseph Smith. According to those familiar with the process, he dictated the Book of Mormon from words that somehow appeared in a “seer stone” or (much the same thing) in the Urim and Thummim. He rarely if ever actually had the plates with him; he couldn’t read what was on them except through revelation anyway, and he could receive revelation (via the “interpreters”) just as easily without the plates as with them. (So why were the plates necessary? Perhaps, among other things, to reassure him and the witnesses who saw and testified of them — and, thus also, us — that he was dealing with something objectively real and external to himself.)

Joseph, the stone and the hat: Why it all matters

Joseph Smith used a stone in a hat to help him in his translation of the Book of Mormon. Critics have made merry over this, but it makes sense and it's actually an indicator that he was telling the truth.

www.deseret.com

 

[Richard7]

Ralf..LOL you wrote ..." common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"...

Yet, the church teaches it was a solid rock, owns the rock, has exhibits in the LDS Museum of the solid Rock, and teaches it was used in a similar way as a cell phone.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf​

June 21, 2016 ·

Not long ago, the Church published photos and background information on seer stones. People have asked me, “Do you really believe that Joseph Smith translated with seer stones? How would something like this be possible?” And I answer, “Yes! That is exactly what I believe.” This was done as Joseph said: by the gift and power of God.

In reality, most of us use a kind of “seer stone” every day. My mobile phone is like a “seer stone.” I can get the collected knowledge of the world through a few little inputs. I can take a photo or a video with my phone and share it with family on the other side of our planet. I can even translate anything into or from many different languages!

If I can do this with my phone, if human beings can do this with their phones or other devices, who are we to say that God could not help Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration, with his translation work? If it is possible for me to access the knowledge of the world through my phone, who can question that seer stones are impossible for God?

Many religions have objects, places, and events that are sacred to them. We respect the sacred beliefs of other religions and hope to be respected for our own beliefs and what is sacred to us. We should never be arrogant, but rather polite and humble. We still should have a natural confidence, because this is the Church of Jesus Christ.
See less

Click Here Ralf

What about that is untrue Ralf?

Ralf..LOL you wrote ..." common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"...

Yet, the church teaches it was a solid rock, owns the rock, has exhibits in the LDS Museum of the solid Rock, and teaches it was used in a similar way as a cell phone.

​

What about that is untrue Ralf?

Markk: "According to Ralf, the LDS church and the general authorities, have no common sense."

Really Markk, that is the only way you could possibly written that, completely not my words and completely out of context.
Again, you should apologize for fabricating a false message.

 

[Richard7]

Dan Peterson wrote in the Deseret News.

Joseph, the stone and the hat: Why it all matters

Joseph Smith used a stone in a hat to help him in his translation of the Book of Mormon. Critics have made merry over this, but it makes sense and it's actually an indicator that he was telling the truth.

www.deseret.com

You're doing great Markk, all these latter day witnesses who can't claim to have been there. Nice try, but there still are many accounts and especially Cowdery and JS were the best of any of the witnesses.

 

[Markk]

Yes, it teaches it and uses the disclaimer that there are many different accounts, which as we have debated is very true...

That is not true. They say there are many accounts, which is true, but that the reliable accounts are the Seer stone and the interpreters in the hat. They never posted it as a "disclaimer." The prophet said "we know" in regard to using seer stones and the interpreters.