Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

fltom said:
You have an obvious problem then

you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation

while Rom 9, 10, 11

show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness

even though god outstretch his hand for them and they have the option of not remaining in unbelief

Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21 (ESV) — 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23 (ESV) — 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
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So all you're doing is repeatedly quoting the same passages, which DO NOT contradict Rom. 9:11-24 in any way.

So apparently you are incapable of explaining your view to others.
So I'll stop wasting my time with you.
 
Theo1689 said:
So all you're doing is repeatedly quoting the same passages, which DO NOT contradict Rom. 9:11-24 in any way.

So apparently you are incapable of explaining your view to others.
So I'll stop wasting my time with you.
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You are in denial Theo

deal with the passages and explanation instead of just offering bald denials

You have an obvious problem then

you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation

while Rom 9, 10, 11

show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness

even though god outstretch his hand for them and they have the option of not remaining in unbelief

Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21 (ESV) — 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23 (ESV) — 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
 
Theo1689 said:
Do you understand why Tom thinks Rom. 9:30-32 allegedly contradicts Rom. 9:11-24? Because I don't see it.

All I see is someone SKIPPING Rom. 9:11-24, because he doesn't like what it teaches, and then PROJECTING "corporate election" onto 9:30-32, which is impossible to do, since (1) 9:11-24 doesn't allow it, which is why he has ti SKIP OVER it, and (2) 9:30-32 talks about some Jews being saved, and others not (which I'm guessing is why he never quotes v.33).

Any ideas?
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I think it has to do with "unconditional election." He hates unconditional election. It gives God ALL the power in salvation.
 
fltom said:
You have an obvious problem then

you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation
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That's nonsense, Tom, God is a God of purpose, He does nothing arbitrarily.
 
Howie said:
I think it has to do with "unconditional election." He hates unconditional election. It gives God ALL the power in salvation.
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Actually it is because it is unbiblical.

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org

Scripture never contradicts itself
 
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fltom said:
Actually it is because it is unbiblical.
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What's unbiblical?

fltom said:

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org

Scripture never contradicts itself
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Yes, Scripture does not contradict itself, therefore, you're wrong about unconditional election, see here.
 
Howie said:
What's unbiblical?


Yes, Scripture does not contradict itself, therefore, you're wrong about unconditional election, see here.
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Sorry that is refuted

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org

I can address any verse you quote while what i post regarding rom 9,10,11 you ignore
 
fltom said:
You ignored the comment

As far as man goes it is arbitrary as it not based on anything he does
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You're ignoring my comment which is, God is a God of purpose, He does nothing arbitrarily, except to those with false theologies.
 
Howie said:
You're ignoring my comment which is, God is a God of purpose, He does nothing arbitrarily, except to those with false theologies.
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once again

As far as man goes it is arbitrary as it not based on anything he does
 
fltom said:
Sorry that is refuted

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org

I can address any verse you quote while what i post regarding rom 9,10,11 you ignore
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I don't ignore your interpretation, Tom, I disagree with it. I think it is wrong. I find it unbiblical.

I tell you that everyday, don't I?
 
Howie said:
I don't ignore your interpretation, Tom, I disagree with it. I think it is wrong. I find it unbiblical.

I tell you that everyday, don't I?
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If you do not address it you ignore it

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org
 
fltom said:
If you do not address it you ignore it

Why did Israel fail to obtain righteous?

You have an obvious problem then you imagine Rom 9:11-24 teaches God arbitrarily selects some for salvation and some for reprobation while Rom 9, 10, 11 show it is because of Faith men obtain righteous and for a lack of faith they are rejected for righteousness even though god outstretch his...
forums.carm.org
Click to expand...
I've addressed your position to wit, I completely disagree it, and I find it wrong and unbiblical.
 
the Mosaic covenant was not a salvation covenant
either for individuals, or the nation
everyone under that covenant still died, eventually

Mosaic law makes one sin more
there was no eternal life Salvation to be obtained from a conditional blessings/curses child/servant relationship with God
 
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