Is Messianic Judaism a Judiasm.

By Grace Thru Faith

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Messiah, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Jesus the Messiah.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

total Pauline banger, that one
What contradicts Paul above is the history and evidence in Tanakh that God extended grace to Israel to those that turned away from sin on their own, Ezekiel 18. There is zero connection or need for Messiah for that grace.

You're refuted once again.
 
it sounds to me like Paul actually understands the Biblical faith
and would be a proponent of a Biblical Messianism - either Judaism or Gentilism

unlike Rabbinicism which
like the Messiah said
is actually not rooted in Moses and the Prophets and the Word of God
but in the teachings of men

but you are free to continue in yr
stiff-knecked and Religious ignorance tho

not believing the Messiah is sin
and a command breaking of the Mosaic law

and as James said, to break in one point
is to be guilty of all
(just as Paul said, to take on any of it Lawfully
one would be obligated then to actually do it all)
 
it sounds to me like Paul actually understands the Biblical faith
and would be a proponent of a Biblical Messianism - either Judaism or Gentilism
Paul was an apostate, and it is doubtful he was a Pharisee.

When the original followers of Jesus, the Nazarenes, reject Paul and his writings, it should give you pause to think.

unlike Rabbinicism which
like the Messiah said
is actually not rooted in Moses and the Prophets and the Word of God
but in the teachings of men
Actually, the rulings of the Rabbis is rooted in Torah, Deut 17:8-13. The true Messiah would know that. Ironically, Jesus was called Rabbi which is Rabbinic title, contradictory to what you espouse.

but you are free to continue in yr
stiff-knecked and Religious ignorance tho
Thank you. My position is Torah-based and Biblical.

not believing the Messiah is sin
and a command breaking of the Mosaic law
You've yet to prove this. You're weak in your defense.

and as James said, to break in one point
Deut 24:13
be sure to return it to him by sunset, so that he may sleep in his own cloak and bless you, and this will be credited to you as righteousness before the LORD your God.

What's interesting is that keeping one law is counted as righteousness. Keep studying AG.

is to be guilty of all
Find that in Torah. ;)

(just as Paul said, to take on any of it Lawfully
one would be obligated then to actually do it all)
Yes, one is obligated in it all, as they apply.

So, Jesus would have to follow all of the laws related to kings, Deut 17:14-20, write a copy of the law, rule by it, and fear his God. All of this follows the laws above related to Rabbis and judges, which he must abide to as well to be perfect in the law.

You remain in your willfull ignorance.
 
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are you as righteous as God? no
do you know God? no
does God know you as His friend? apparently not
are you Special? no

does God owe you anything? no

"When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name
...the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
...O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went."
Ezekiel 36
 
are you as righteous as God? no
You're making stupid statements that no one has broached.

do you know God? no
does God know you as His friend? apparently not
are you Special? no
Yes, God knows me and I know him.

does God owe you anything? no
Never said He did. Another stupid statement of yours.

"When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name
...the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
...O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went."
Ezekiel 36
It's funny that you can't stick to the point and have to try to throw something that sticks.

Read the entire Ezekiel 36. ;)

You can never address what I post. You're weak in your arguments, AG.
 

“Kiss the Son” or “Do homage in purity” in Psalm 2:12?​

April 4, 2022 by Lana Vrz
“Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.” (Psalm 2:12, KJV)

Introduction​

The KJV translates “נשׁקו־בר (nashku bar)” as “kiss the son”. The meaning of the verb “נשׁקו (nashku)” is not so much in dispute. “Kiss” is the literal translation (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions) and “do homage” is a paraphrase of “kiss”. The idea is that kissing demonstrates the subject’s reverence towards the master. The KJV keeps the literal rendering.

“Son” fits the context​

The bigger issue is whether “בר (bar)” should be translated “Son”. The normal Hebrew word for “son” is “בנ (ben)”. “בר (bar)” means “son” in Aramaic (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions). The word for “pure” in Hebrew is “בר (bar)” (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions). That is why some translations have “Do homage in purity” at Psalm 2:12. However, “בר (bar)” is used to mean “son” in Proverbs 31:2 (“What, my son [ברי]? and what, the son [בר] of my womb? and what, the son [בר] of my vows?”), so it is possible for the Aramaic word to be used in Hebrew poetry.
At this point, some critics allege that “בר (bar)” is in the construct (possessive) state, which would be translated “son of” as in Proverbs 31:2. It is alleged that the word must be in the emphatic state, “ברא (b’ra)”, to justify the translation as “the Son”. However, there are two problems with this allegation. One is that in the Targums “the construct state is occasionally used for the emphatic” (An Aramaic Method: A Class Book for the Study of The Elements of Aramaic, Part II: Elements of Grammar, Charles Rufus Brown (Chicago : American Publication Society of Hebrew, 1886), p. 89)
The second problem with this allegation is that the Aramaic of Psalm 2 may be very old (certainly being older than the Targums). Given that the emphatic state is unique to Aramaic among the Semitic languages, it is reasonable to suppose that it is a more recent feature of Aramaic. It may well be that at the time of Psalm 2 there was no such feature, or perhaps it was expressed by a vowel. This original lack of the emphatic state may have survived as a vestige in the occasional Targum uses where the emphatic does not appear where it should.
Given that the focus of Psalm 2 is on the coming Messiah (“his anointed” (verse 2), “my king” (verse 6), “my Son” (verse 7)), it seems appropriate in the climactic conclusion for the psalmist to command the people to revere this Messiah. Also, the Psalm begins with the people rebelling against the LORD “and against his anointed” (verse 2). A complete resolution requires the Psalm to conclude not only with the command to “Serve the LORD” (verse 11) but also with the command to revere his anointed – that is, to “Kiss the Son” (verse 12).

Reason for the switch from “בנ (ben)” to “בר (bar)”​

Despite “Kiss the Son” fitting the context of the Psalm, critics argue that the context does not warrant the importation of this Aramaic word. The Hebrew word for “son”, “בנ (ben)”, is used in the very same Psalm at verse 7 (“Thou art my Son….”). These critics see no reason for the immediate switch from using the Hebrew word to the Aramaic word.
The reason for the switch may be due to:
  • the shift of audience;
  • the shift in geography;
  • the chronology of the narrative.
Verse 7 is spoken by the LORD to his Son. This is the God of Israel speaking to an Israelite Son. The audience, being an Israelite Son, is addressed as “Son” in the Hebrew language. Verse 12, however, is spoken to Gentiles. The Psalm begins with a question relating to the rebellion of the Gentiles (“heathen”, translated from “גוים (goyim)” is the same word for Gentiles). Verse 10 refers to judges “of the earth” and therefore the admonition in verse 12 to “Kiss the Son” is given to these Gentiles. The Gentiles nearest to the psalmist were the Chaldeans who spoke Aramaic. To these Gentiles, this reverent individual is addressed as “Son” in the Aramaic language.
The Psalm also emphasizes the contrast between Zion and the uttermost parts of the earth. Verse 6 says “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.” This coming Messiah is not just a generic ruler of the world. He has his roots in Israel, has a Hebrew character, and speaks the Hebrew language. He is the “בנ (ben)” of Israel’s God. Then verse 8 says “…I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” Here the focus shifts, or rather grows, from the locality of Israel to the entire globe. This coming Messiah is therefore no longer a local king of Israel. He is the “בר (bar)” of earth’s God. Thus the identification of the “Son” as either in the local language or in the lingua franca depends on the geographic context of the verse.
This second Psalm is indisputably loaded with theology. It speaks of soteriology, Trinitarianism, and eschatology. The shifting use of the words for “son” might have its significance in the Psalm’s insights with respect to the chronology of redemptive history. In Christ’s first coming, he was hailed by some as the king of the Jews. In his second coming, he will be hailed as the king of the entire world. The events of verse 9 definitely take place at the time of Christ’s second coming. At this time, he will be addressed in English as the “Son” of God, in Spanish as the “Hijo” of God, in French as the “fils” of God, and by the resurrected Aramaic speaking saints as the “בר (bar)” of God. The historical chronology of the shifting identity of the Son from Jewish to international is mirrored by the Psalm’s shift in the identification of the “Son” from “בנ (ben)” first to “בר (bar)” in the end.
 

“Kiss the Son” or “Do homage in purity” in Psalm 2:12?​

April 4, 2022 by Lana Vrz
“Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.” (Psalm 2:12, KJV)

Introduction​

The KJV translates “נשׁקו־בר (nashku bar)” as “kiss the son”. The meaning of the verb “נשׁקו (nashku)” is not so much in dispute. “Kiss” is the literal translation (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions) and “do homage” is a paraphrase of “kiss”. The idea is that kissing demonstrates the subject’s reverence towards the master. The KJV keeps the literal rendering.

“Son” fits the context​

The bigger issue is whether “בר (bar)” should be translated “Son”. The normal Hebrew word for “son” is “בנ (ben)”. “בר (bar)” means “son” in Aramaic (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions). The word for “pure” in Hebrew is “בר (bar)” (Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions). That is why some translations have “Do homage in purity” at Psalm 2:12. However, “בר (bar)” is used to mean “son” in Proverbs 31:2 (“What, my son [ברי]? and what, the son [בר] of my womb? and what, the son [בר] of my vows?”), so it is possible for the Aramaic word to be used in Hebrew poetry.
At this point, some critics allege that “בר (bar)” is in the construct (possessive) state, which would be translated “son of” as in Proverbs 31:2. It is alleged that the word must be in the emphatic state, “ברא (b’ra)”, to justify the translation as “the Son”. However, there are two problems with this allegation. One is that in the Targums “the construct state is occasionally used for the emphatic” (An Aramaic Method: A Class Book for the Study of The Elements of Aramaic, Part II: Elements of Grammar, Charles Rufus Brown (Chicago : American Publication Society of Hebrew, 1886), p. 89)
The second problem with this allegation is that the Aramaic of Psalm 2 may be very old (certainly being older than the Targums). Given that the emphatic state is unique to Aramaic among the Semitic languages, it is reasonable to suppose that it is a more recent feature of Aramaic. It may well be that at the time of Psalm 2 there was no such feature, or perhaps it was expressed by a vowel. This original lack of the emphatic state may have survived as a vestige in the occasional Targum uses where the emphatic does not appear where it should.
Given that the focus of Psalm 2 is on the coming Messiah (“his anointed” (verse 2), “my king” (verse 6), “my Son” (verse 7)), it seems appropriate in the climactic conclusion for the psalmist to command the people to revere this Messiah. Also, the Psalm begins with the people rebelling against the LORD “and against his anointed” (verse 2). A complete resolution requires the Psalm to conclude not only with the command to “Serve the LORD” (verse 11) but also with the command to revere his anointed – that is, to “Kiss the Son” (verse 12).

Reason for the switch from “בנ (ben)” to “בר (bar)”​

Despite “Kiss the Son” fitting the context of the Psalm, critics argue that the context does not warrant the importation of this Aramaic word. The Hebrew word for “son”, “בנ (ben)”, is used in the very same Psalm at verse 7 (“Thou art my Son….”). These critics see no reason for the immediate switch from using the Hebrew word to the Aramaic word.
The reason for the switch may be due to:
  • the shift of audience;
  • the shift in geography;
  • the chronology of the narrative.
Verse 7 is spoken by the LORD to his Son. This is the God of Israel speaking to an Israelite Son. The audience, being an Israelite Son, is addressed as “Son” in the Hebrew language. Verse 12, however, is spoken to Gentiles. The Psalm begins with a question relating to the rebellion of the Gentiles (“heathen”, translated from “גוים (goyim)” is the same word for Gentiles). Verse 10 refers to judges “of the earth” and therefore the admonition in verse 12 to “Kiss the Son” is given to these Gentiles. The Gentiles nearest to the psalmist were the Chaldeans who spoke Aramaic. To these Gentiles, this reverent individual is addressed as “Son” in the Aramaic language.
The Psalm also emphasizes the contrast between Zion and the uttermost parts of the earth. Verse 6 says “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.” This coming Messiah is not just a generic ruler of the world. He has his roots in Israel, has a Hebrew character, and speaks the Hebrew language. He is the “בנ (ben)” of Israel’s God. Then verse 8 says “…I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” Here the focus shifts, or rather grows, from the locality of Israel to the entire globe. This coming Messiah is therefore no longer a local king of Israel. He is the “בר (bar)” of earth’s God. Thus the identification of the “Son” as either in the local language or in the lingua franca depends on the geographic context of the verse.
This second Psalm is indisputably loaded with theology. It speaks of soteriology, Trinitarianism, and eschatology. The shifting use of the words for “son” might have its significance in the Psalm’s insights with respect to the chronology of redemptive history. In Christ’s first coming, he was hailed by some as the king of the Jews. In his second coming, he will be hailed as the king of the entire world. The events of verse 9 definitely take place at the time of Christ’s second coming. At this time, he will be addressed in English as the “Son” of God, in Spanish as the “Hijo” of God, in French as the “fils” of God, and by the resurrected Aramaic speaking saints as the “בר (bar)” of God. The historical chronology of the shifting identity of the Son from Jewish to international is mirrored by the Psalm’s shift in the identification of the “Son” from “בנ (ben)” first to “בר (bar)” in the end.
Doesn't help you. Even if bar here refers to son, the opening context in Psalm 2:1-2 shows the gentile nations with the problem.
 
yr deflection, and the occasional wink, does not help you

Even if bar here refers to son
it does -
it's just one example of the way Rabbis are twisting specific words and passages
to fit their Jesus is not the Messiah, the Son of Promise is not divine
scheme of Religious works righteousness

-

so gentiles have a problem that Jews do not?
Israel actually has bigger problems
they have the scriptures, but really don't understand/believe them
they have the Messiah, but don't believe Him
they hold the covenants, but don't know God
 
yr deflection, and the occasional wink, does not help you
No deflection. Psalm 2 as a whole doesn't help you.

1Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
2The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together,
against the LORD and against His Anointed One:

it does -
it's just one example of the way Rabbis are twisting specific words and passages
to fit their Jesus is not the Messiah, the Son of Promise is not divine
scheme of Religious works righteousness
Why do the nations fight against God and his anointed?

How are these words twisted?

so gentiles have a problem that Jews do not?
What does Psalm 2 say above?

Israel actually has bigger problems
they have the scriptures, but really don't understand/believe them
they have the Messiah, but don't believe Him
they hold the covenants, but don't know God
Rotfl... See above.

What does Jesus say in John 4:22?

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Was Jesus misinformed above?
 
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