The logical truth and reality of God.
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Mr Laurier
Well-known member
False.
There are ,many evidences for the truth of Christianity and thereby Faith in Christianity
is NOT blind faith.
Here are 20 secular arguments for the existence of God.
Twenty Arguments God's Existence by Peter Kreeft (& Ronald K. Tacelli)
Your blind faith claim is false.
JAG
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False as I explained up-thread.
False.
There are ,many evidences for the truth of Christianity and thereby Faith in Christianity
is NOT blind faith.
Here are 20 secular arguments for the existence of God.
False.There are ,many evidences for the truth of Christianity and thereby Faith in Christianity
is NOT blind faith.
Here are 20 secular arguments for the existence of God.
Twenty Arguments God's Existence by Peter Kreeft (& Ronald K. Tacelli)
Whatsisface
Well-known member
So it's not fair?
If Bible truths are intended to reach mind and heart with truth, then isn't the mind bit part of an intellectual system?
Many Christians seek to establish Christianity via historical methods and reason.
If you were the creator of the universe, would you set things up so that if someone didn't believe they would perish?
Why?
I really don't. How do i know?
Why has God delivered you, and not me?
Can you give an example?
Tetsugaku
Well-known member
How are we even meant to converse if you reject the dictionary as an authority on the meanings of words?
That's not what I said you had blind faith in.
And even if it was, merely linking to a list doesn't show otherwise.
You would need to present and defend at least one of these arguments.
Strawman. Rather I believe that all logical truth exists in and because of God's mind, which just makes Him reality, because it is ONLY a believing mind that possesses the capacity to acknowledge existence and enlighten the mind of its own existence and knowledge of the truth and reality. And nothing else outside of a believing mind possesses this capacity. Therefore, the ONLY thing capable of enlightening a mind to its own existence is belief and since it is ONLY a believing mind that possesses this capacity, then reality must be a believing mind, because the truth and reality cannot be known by any other way or place outside of a believing mind.
Where and how do we acknowledge our own existence and identity, if not in and with our own believing mind? As we are our minds and that is how and where we are known to exist.
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Strawman. If logic is absolute it cannot exist in and because of God's mind. That would make it contingent, in which case it would not be absolute, and that being so would mean there were no Laws of Logic.
Evasion, deal with what's being said to you rather than running away.
And please explain why what I said is "nonsensical word salad", for your convenience I have pasted it below.
Can you know or experience the truth or reality without a believing mind? No you cannot.
And we experience the truth and reality in and with our believing minds and outside or without the benefit of a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable.
And FYI, 'quantum entanglement' implies the necessary existence of a believing mind in order for collapse to occur.
You do not dictate to me what I must do or what I need to do.
You do not set and establish the rules of discourse.
You do not have the Authority to issue a proclamation saying that dictionaries are
the authority on the definitions of words and make your proclamation binding
upon me I explained up-thread why that is true.
You do not have the authority to declare faith off limits in discourse.
You do not have the authority to tell me that I cannot quote Bible verses as the
basis for my beliefs. I will do that and I will continue to do that.
If you do not like it, you do not have to read my posts.
Is there some Force drawing you to read my posts?
JAG
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Let's see what's "absolute". If logic is dependent and requires a believing mind for a way and place to be known and known to exist, then logic too is contingent upon a believing mind for its existence as well. Logic entails the existence of a believing mind, because in reality it is in and by a believing mind that the truth and logic can be known to exist. So, the truth, logic, morality, consciousness, existence and logic all entail a believing mind's existing, making reality a believing mind. Therefore, wouldn't the dependency and entailment of a believing mind in order for the existence of the truth, logic, morality, consciousness and logic to exist make that believing mind absolute?
Really? Please explain what is ambiguous about eliminating all other options (Reductio ad absurdum) or the making otherwise absurd
and leaving ONLY one?
Explain why there is no logical connection between a believing mind ('in and by a mind') and the term 'known' or the term 'exist', when it is ONLY a believing mind that can acknowledge knowledge and existence?
Whatsisface
Well-known member
No. It requires a mind to realise the concept of logic, but what the concepts refer to don't. If there were no minds, logic would still prevail. If there were no minds, a rock would still be a rock, as recognised by the Law of Identity.
Logic is about the recognition that certain things can only be what they are. For example, if P then Q, or, A=A. That this is so means it's absolute and non contingent.
Not fair according to your personal current understanding of the word "fair."
The mind is a part of the whole person, but that does not mean the path to Faith in God is
through the intellect. Its not. Rather the path to faith in God is through the heart. The heart has
to do with what is really important which is LOVE -- first LOVE God with all your heart, mind, and
soul -- next LOVE your neighbor as you love yourself.
True.
Christendom has about 2.3 billion adherents so you will get some of just about anything and everything.
Yes.
Yes based upon what I know about why God set it up that way.
Faith is a simple test to determine who will be God?
{1} Will it be WIF?
or
{2} Will it be the God that created you.
Your answer is {1) , , , you can spin it and you can wiggle, but it boils down to what the Jews cried out
to Pilate "We will NOT have this man to reign over us."
This is exactly what you, de facto, are telling God , , I will not have you to reign over me.
God says Okay have it your way, I will give you what you demand I give you.
By the way, what God allows you to have that you demand is the perish of John 3:16
Remember as Eternity rolls on and on that you demanded it.
So who will be God?
This same simple test was made in the Garden.
Do not eat of a certain tree.
You can eat from all trees except one.
Don't eat of that tree. , , , , "Wet paint, Do not touch."
But Eve wanted to "be as God" says the text and so she took
and ate.
Its the same principle: Who will be God.
Both Adam and Eve said, in effect, We will NOT have God to reign over us.
But I JAG will have God to reign over me.
I will obey God.
I will do His will.
I will obey Him and I will exercise Faith in Him.
So will Christendom's some 2.3 billion Christians.
The Lord Jesus prayed 3 times in Gethsemane Father let this cup
pass from me nevertheless not my will, but thy will be done.
This in my attitude.
God created me. He has the right to command me. I will obey Him.
Because I love Him.
I love Him for what He did for me on Calvary's Cross.
More later , , ,
JAG
`Bible Verses For Today:
"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight."
Isaiah 5:21
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What do "concept" refer to and denote? And if it is logically impossible to know of a state or reality where logic and minds don't exist together, then it is even impossible to imagine such a state.
And FYI the Law of Identity, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded Middle presupposes and implies the existence of a believing mind.
Actually the recognition that certain things can only be" known for "what they are" implies the preexistence and necessity of a believing mind in order to acknowledge the existence of logic and its implementation in reality. And that's perfectly consistent with if P then Q, or, A=A. That means that a absolute mind is necessary in order to host the existence of logic, truth and consciousness, as these concepts are the products or attributes of God's mind.
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Right, so?
But what they refer to doesn't.
Yes, but what the logic refers to doesn't necessarily.
No. Can God make a square circle?
Whatsisface
Well-known member
I thought a lot about how to reply to this in a productive manner, but failed.
I will just say about the Bible verse, I don't think I am always wise, sometimes but certainly not always, and I don't think I'm that clever. I know there are some posters here, no names, who know more than I and think more thoroughly than I. That's one reason why I'm here, I enjoy reading their posts and they make me think, which is usually a good thing.
WIF,
Good post -- much appreciated.
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The Bible verse that says , , ,
"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight."
Isaiah 5:21
, , , , was not directed only at you, but was just a general Biblical truth
that applies to all we human beings.
However I am glad that you gave it some thought -- I need to also give it some thought.
As do we all.
Best.
JAG
Whatsisface
Well-known member
Great. Another thing I've learned that is also worthy of thought, and I'm saying this in a general manner, is that the world is more complicated than we as individuals might think. Knowing that you don't know it all is a good thing, at the very least it should make you not be too quick to dismiss what others think.
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