Who or What is the Trinity ?

e v e said:
The purpose to look at a hieroglyphic text when deemed needed by a scholar to do so
is not to follow that texts beliefs. There is nothing wrong with studying the etymology of
a term or cluster of terms as to their provenance.

For example, I've been trying to tell other christians here that the greek meaning of soul, as psuche
is not the meaning in genesis and prophets.

In hebrew the term means one undivided being. Soul and body being the same term in either case.
In greek, a metaphysical object is presented of a spirit plus a body, a chimera basically.

This is a huge problem and affects every bit of theology. No one cares.

In addition, His spirit is always referred as feminine in Hebrew. And in fact, the literature
shows the feminine connotation is not merely grammatical. The Greek obscured and altered this.

But the hebrew must always take precedence and is the LEGAL basis for the new testament. Without it, the NT
has NO legal right. Some christian groups discard all they can of the hebrew scriptures and prophets.

I do not.

I had written this before seeing your post. Yes, I am a scholar, retired now. I taught ancients mostly but for undergraduates, history of philosophy.

I can find some for you that have a negative root.

Negative because that is one way that scripture denotes God's enemy.
Certain words in prophets are used most often to refer to the enemy, and never refer to God's people.

The hebrew words used to discuss the enemy will have some etymology differences, such that even if you
do not specifically say 'he is the enemy' it will be obvious from the etymology that the roots indicate such.

Some scholars have ignored this and some of this has resulted in all sorts of backwards meanings. (Look around these forums.)
So yes, If I see that a term has a root that may be negative (non-hebrew) I become alert, as that adds
nuance to what scripture says.
Click to expand...
You're a scholar in what respect to ancient languages?
 
e v e said:
I agree, but in terms of/in this way: that modern christianity has misunderstood everything about Him and is in a dire mess.
Click to expand...
Yep.

e v e said:
However, I am Christian in that I understand He came to this earth to bring us out from the fallen situation since Adam ate of the fruit.
Click to expand...
But Messiah isn't a perfect man either. There's no reason for king Messiah to write his own Torah scrolls, and to fear the LORD, if he is God, Deut 17:18-20. Why would God fear Himself. It's clearly stated he is not greater than his brothers, is not immortal, and he has physical children.

When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It is to remain with him, and he is to read from it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by carefully observing all the words of this instruction and these statutes. Then his heart will not be exalted above his countrymen, and he will not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or to the left, in order that he and his sons may reign many years over his kingdom in Israel.

e v e said:
That said, most everything I've ever said on these forums is misunderstood and thus rejected by most christians on this forum.
And I've stopped posting at the length or with the effort of before as it's a hopeless case.
Click to expand...
Yep, welcome to the club.

e v e said:
No one reads prophets and if they read prophets it is not side by side with hebrew but through "translations." I put that in quotes to be kind.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
Last edited:
Jewjitzu said:
Yep.


But Messiah isn't a perfect man either. There's no reason for king Messiah to write his own Torah scrolls, and to fear the LORD, if he is God, Deut 17:18-20. Why would God fear Himself. It's clearly stated he is not greater than his brothers, is not immortal, and he has physical children.

When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It is to remain with him, and he is to read from it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by carefully observing all the words of this instruction and these statutes. Then his heart will not be exalted above his countrymen, and he will not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or to the left, in order that he and his sons may reign many years over his kingdom in Israel.


Yep, welcome to the club.


Yep.
Click to expand...
Excuse me but who told you the Messiah wrote the Torah Scrolls? According to the following Moses wrote them.

The Talmud holds that the Torah was written by Moses, with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, describing his death and burial, being written by Joshua. Alternatively, Rashi quotes from the Talmud that, "God spoke them, and Moses wrote them with tears".

And secondly, if you believe that the Messiah is not Jesus Christ, how do you the Messiah your waiting for is not perfect? And if Jesus Christ is the Messiah, again, how do you know He is not perfect? Also at Deuteronomy 17:14-15, the Lord God says He will pick a king from among your countrymen. That is those who are living at that time.

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 
jamesh said:
Excuse me but who told you the Messiah wrote the Torah Scrolls? According to the following Moses wrote them.

The Talmud holds that the Torah was written by Moses, with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, describing his death and burial, being written by Joshua. Alternatively, Rashi quotes from the Talmud that, "God spoke them, and Moses wrote them with tears".
Click to expand...
Read Deut 17:18-20. He'll write his own copy of the scrolls and have children that reign after him. Someone perfect doesn't die and have one reign after him.

When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It is to remain with him, and he is to read from it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by carefully observing all the words of this instruction and these statutes. Then his heart will not be exalted above his countrymen, and he will not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or to the left, in order that he and his sons may reign many years over his kingdom in Israel.

And the Levitical priests are around too. Sounds like the temple and sacrifices will be around too.

I don't think you read my words carefully, jamesh.

jamesh said:
And secondly, if you believe that the Messiah is not Jesus Christ, how do you the Messiah your waiting for is not perfect?
Click to expand...
Read the verses I gave. It's clearly he isn't God either.

jamesh said:
And if Jesus Christ is the Messiah, again, how do you know He is not perfect?
Click to expand...
Because he wasn't. He died like all mortal men do.

Did he have physical children? Are they dual natured as their father?

jamesh said:
Also at Deuteronomy 17:14-15, the Lord God says He will pick a king from among your countrymen. That is those who are living at that time.
Click to expand...
V14 was a one time thing. No, the rest are eternal commandments. V15, I don't think you mean to imply we can overthrow the Davidic dynasty?

BTW, Jesus never fulfilled them either.

jamesh said:
IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
Click to expand...
No such thing. Are you related to Gilgamesh, jamesh?
 
Last edited:
Jewjitzu said:
I was born one. And I practice Judaism.
Click to expand...
Nonsense.

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
 
Tanachreader said:
Nonsense.
Click to expand...
Why?

Tanachreader said:
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Click to expand...
This doesn't discredit what I said. I think these NT words refer to you.
 
Jewjitzu said:
And one can remain a Jew and hate what is false, Christianity.
When all of the world knows God, the world lives in peace, Jerusalem will be in peace, and the 3rd temple is built. Also, the Levitical Priesthood will bring sacrifices again, as promised in Jeremiah 33:17-26. Along with that, when messiah comes he will bring his own sacrifice and for the nation, Ezekiel 45:22, and a Passover sacrifice, Ezekiel 46:4.
Again, your mistaken. All Orthodox Jews are messianic and expect Messiah can come at any time. He will be Torah observant and teach Jews to be like-wise.
I never read that. But, that would exclude a 2nd coming then too, right? I think you're thinking of the virgin birth, which never happened and was never prophesied.
BTW, again, your personal story served no purpose nor helped your cause.
Click to expand...
First century Jews in Israel knew that the virgin birth was prophesied and they knew about the second condition also. Showing how clueless you are.
 
OldShepherd said:
First century Jews in Israel knew that the virgin birth was prophesied and they knew about the second condition also. Showing how clueless you are.
Click to expand...
No they didn't. It's a fake prophecy. A pregnant virgin is not a sign any different than a pregnant non-virgin.

The gnostic and gentiles believed that junk. Why don't you check your Jewish sources over at Jewish Encyclopedia?

Here, I'll provide it for you:

The "Immanuel" Passage.
This picture of the future fully accords with Isaiah's view, that the judgment will lead to a spiritual regeneration and bring about a state of moral and religious perfection; and it agrees also with the doctrine, which, in his bitter opposition to the alliances with Assyria and Egypt, he preached to his people—the doctrine, namely, that their sole concern should be God and their sole reliance be on Him, for thus, and thus only, might they endure (vii. 9; comp. also v. 4, viii. 13, xxx. 15). The prophets advocated a government which would be in conformity with God's will and be regulated by His laws of righteousness. In connection with Isaiah's Messianic hope it remains to be observed that the "Immanuel" passage, Isa. vii. 14, which is interpreted in Matt. i. 23 as referring to the birth of Jesus, has, as Robertson Smith ("The Prophets of Israel," pp. 271 et seq., 426 et seq.) and others have pointed out, no Messianic import whatever. The name has reference merely to events of the immediate present. He means to give a token by which the truth of his prophetic word may be tested, saying that any young woman giving birth to a son in the near future will call him "Immanuel" (= "God with us"), in remembrance of the withdrawal of the Syrian-Ephraimitic armies from the country (v. 16). "'Almah" does not mean "virgin" (as given in A. V. and other versions; the only word meaning this is "betulah"), but "a young woman sexually mature," whether married or unmarried; the article "ha-" of "ha-'almah" is the generic article.

Remember, you acknowledge them as scholars.

Get a clue.... Rotfl...
 
Last edited:
Jewjitzu said:
No they didn't. It's a fake prophecy. A pregnant virgin is not a sign any different than a pregnant non-virgin.
* * *
Remember, you acknowledge them as scholars.
Get a clue.... Rotfl...
Click to expand...
I am not interested in the opinions of anti-Christian modern Jews. That is about like asking Palestinians about Judaism.
All the early Christians were Jews and they believed that the Isaiah prophesy was about Yehoshua ben Miriam.
Some quotes from "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by 19th century Jewish convert to Christianity Alfred Edersheim from Appendix 9 456 Old Testament passages considered messianic before Christ..
<>Is. ix. 6 is expressly applied to the Messiah in the Targum, and there is a very curious comment in Debarim R. 1 (ed. Warsh., p. 4 a) in connection with a Haggadic discussion of Gen. xliii. 14, which, however fanciful, makes a Messianic application of this passage – also in Bemidbar R. 11.
<>On Lam. i. 16 there is in the Midrash R. (ed. Warsh. p. 64 b) the curious story about the birth of the Messiah in the royal palace of Bethlehem, which also occurs in the Jer. Talmud.
<>In Gen. xxxv. 21 the Targum Pseudo-Jon. paraphrases ‘the tower of Eder’ (at Bethlehem) as the place whence the Messiah would be revealed.​
 
OldShepherd said:
I am not interested in the opinions of anti-Christian modern Jews. That is about like asking Palestinians about Judaism.
Click to expand...
But, you reference them. Does that only apply when they don't favor you? Rotfl...

OldShepherd said:
All the early Christians were Jews and they believed that the Isaiah prophesy was about Yehoshua ben Miriam.
Click to expand...
That's false. Where's the reference from the Targum?

OldShepherd said:
Some quotes from "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by 19th century Jewish convert to Christianity Alfred Edersheim from Appendix 9 456 Old Testament passages considered messianic before Christ..
<>Is. ix. 6 is expressly applied to the Messiah in the Targum, and there is a very curious comment in Debarim R. 1 (ed. Warsh., p. 4 a) in connection with a Haggadic discussion of Gen. xliii. 14, which, however fanciful, makes a Messianic application of this passage – also in Bemidbar R. 11.​
Click to expand...
This isn't Isaiah 7:14. Why bring it up except to escape your predicament?

Also, why reference these Rabbi's who didn't believe in Jesus either?

OldShepherd said:
<>On Lam. i. 16 there is in the Midrash R. (ed. Warsh. p. 64 b) the curious story about the birth of the Messiah in the royal palace of Bethlehem, which also occurs in the Jer. Talmud.​
Click to expand...
Again, this isn't Isaiah 7:14. Focus.

OldShepherd said:
<>In Gen. xxxv. 21 the Targum Pseudo-Jon. paraphrases ‘the tower of Eder’ (at Bethlehem) as the place whence the Messiah would be revealed.​
Click to expand...
Yeah, Jesse and the Anointed David were born there.
 
Last edited:
Tanachreader said:
His Father's Love was shown through Him.
Click to expand...
By creation itself.

What are mere mortals that you should think about them, human beings that you should care for them? Yet you made them only a little lower than God and crowned them with glory and honor. You gave them charge of everything you made,
putting all things under their authority— the flocks and the herds and all the wild animals, the birds in the sky, the fish in the sea, and everything that swims the ocean currents.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top