Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Well then the NT is wrong as Tanakh debunks it. Read Ezekiel 18.
Why Jews will never accept Jesus
- Thread starter Open Heart
- Start date
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Yes, you can be perfect without Jesus.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
That's why you fail to see. God is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end...you won't find the thread when you close your eyes to the beginning.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
Finally got a chance to read it...It highlights the degree of credulity and ignorance a person has to maintain to discount the accounts. If you're going to discredit the historically accurate claims of Christianity, you have to poison the well. Let me address a couple key issues. Tabor relies heavily on the claim that Mark is the oldest account, yet we have papyri fragments of John that follow only decades after the oldest extant fragments of Mark found in Qumran. The spurious claim that Mark is source material for Luke and Matthew has no support...and the claim that Mark ends abruptly ignores the basic principles of textual criticism, which insists that the majority text is authoritative. Texts that differed from the majority were rejected and burned.
If you can, read this link from James Tabor.
Tabor's reasonings take the fallacious NIV claim that the "oldest" copies of Mark don't contain the authorized ending. That would be two recent discoveries: the Sinaiticus and the Vatican's do not contain the received text. The claim that two texts claim authority by antiquity is spurious. There is no such authority. That's not how copying worked...ever. Unfortunately for any such claim, the received ending was received when the canon was sealed...the evidence was sufficient for inclusion. All attempts to excise the verses have failed throughout the centuries, and they are some of the most problematic in the gospels for obvious reasons.
You and I have already gone over the desperate claims that the body was moved after the tomb was sealed with a stone, a roman seal and a guard. No matter how hard you try, any critic as keen on disproving the resurrection as you are would have easily sent to the "second" tomb and brought out the bones of the crucified Jesus. It NEVER happened, and the claims were made remade and debunked both times. Too many eyewitnesses to the resurrection precluded the success of any such claim.
You yourself have acknowledged the peaceful sharing of the temple proper with the Nazarene sect after His resurrection. The resurrection was not in dispute, or there would have been no such concord.
Finally...your reasoning will never suffice to grasp this fact: If Jesus rose from the dead, the proof becomes personal: an encounter with Him is possible. Those of us who undertake a discussion like this will testify that we have had such an encounter, the evidence of which has continued to confirm that He did indeed rise from the dead. Paul makes it clear to the Corinthians: if there was no resurrection, our faith is in vain. But completely independent of the overwhelming, external and historic evidence, the internal evidence begins with that encounter that invites Him in. Simple as that.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Eyes wide open. The Father is described as such if your eyes are opened.
Biblican
Well-known member
Right, but without God's plan accompanying our ability to follow His law our souls cannot enter into heaven when we die. If the law was sufficient to accomplish this, then there would have been no need for the tabernacle in the first place.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Mystical experiences of a figure of Jesus is not evidence of a resurrection of him.
Like I said before I'm at the end of my line in our discussions. It's repetive with my discussions with others.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
The law includes the tabernacle, temple sacrifices. So, your comments are DOA.
Biblican
Well-known member
I have the Spirit because I have received the New Everlasting Covenant which was instigated by Jesus. That Covenant was to be instigated when the second temple was rebuilt and it was. You are still waiting for it.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Again, you're excluded based on the clear words in Jeremiah 31:31-34. You'll never get passed this point.
Ezekiel 37-45 shows a 3rd temple. So does Jeremiah 33. Nice try.
Biblican
Well-known member
I believe that following God 's word is important, but the real evidence that someone is saved and indwelt with His Holy Spirit is a reformed nature, one that operates in love, joy, peace, meekness, gentleness, kindness, etc. And that reformation is a process that takes time for some and comes by abiding in the Messiah, John 15. The Pharisees in Jesus' day were following the law, they had even memorized all of it, but they were lacking in those things that God requires as evidence of a genuine salvation.
Biblican
Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree. As I said, when I had doubts the Lord revealed Himself to me in the Old Testament before I had a chance to be exposed to any previous instructions in finding the Messiah in the Old Testament. I found Him for myself.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Yep, the fruit of the spirit is obedience to the Torah.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
How did he reveal himself? Speech, vision, etc.? Did you have a Damascus experience?
For me, it's never been with great revelry, but a quiet voice speaking to my heart through the Tanakh.
Biblican
Well-known member
The third temple is also figurative of the word of God that His people have violated by putting their post by His posts, and their threshold by HIs thresholds (Ezekiel 43:8). If there is going to be a literal third temple it is only after Jesus 'second coming in Zechariah 14. Prior to that Israel goes into a second captivity, is attacked by the antichrist, Daniel 11 and Ezekiel 38,39. The New Covenant is given when Jesus came the first time and was rejected by the Jewish leaders but received by the Gentiles. This is supported by the prophets who associated the New Everlasting Covenant with the second temple, not the third.
Biblican
Well-known member
You can obey the law legalistically, but not be exhibiting the fruits of a reformed nature. There is a difference between someone who has a "religious spirit" and someone who is actually indwelt with the Holy Spirit and letting the Spirit reform their natures.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
No Messiah in the context of Zechariah 14. You keep pitching this with zero support.
This is the 2nd captivity. We've been attacked by Rome and the church for a while, the church speaking against the most high in Daniel 7:25.
Refuted previously.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Those with the Spirit keep the law, Zechariah 7:12, Ezekiel 36:26-27. That is a reformed nature.
I don't see you with this Spirit.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
Jesus was not all men...that, too, is clear.
No...but Man can...and the Word can become flesh. He cannot remain dead...but He can destroy the power of death.
No.
No.
...well...now there's a good one. He can send lying spirits to fill the mouth of Ahab's prophets.
He can repent...
...as you remove the thought that "nothing is possible." What He has done has been known for a long time.
No...you're being redundant after you've been refuted. I put "Word" in caps, because He became flesh in the womb of her who received the WORD and believed what He said. Like hands, the Word acts on nature and performs His stated purpose.
Yes...and without God's spoken Word was not anything made that was made.
We've been here. His claim was to ALL authority, both in heaven and on earth. And, Like God in the beginning, He delegated all to us through His name.
How bout I show you your amazing imagination: The parts were there...Abraham fell asleep and did not walk: As two walked, a smoking pot and a flaming brazier, the fire and the smoke, God the WORD SPOKE the covenant.
Why are you subtracting from the obvious? Have you never looked at this before?
Two passed as God spoke. Why are you subtracting? What are you afraid of? Come up with an explanation...NO COVENANT is made between non-entities...and a suzerainty treaty is made between two suzerains. You are bent on being right here, and you have no basis for your claim. I'm a little surprised.
Can't lie...He can make covenant. He can't break covenant. The gifts and the anointing are without repentance. He can become flesh and dwell among us. I won't put barriers up and say God will not cross this line. I'm not afraid to examine evidence...
You really need to read the pesky passage a few more times: It says God placed on Him our transgressions, our iniquity. He made His SOUL/nephesh/blood a sacrifice for our sins.
4Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
10Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Why do you subtract?
Of course the link helped me...It is always helpful to see what you buttress your error with. The NIV is rife with confusion and mistranslation. I'm much more comfortable going back and forth over the actual Greek than to see how folks misapply their own prejudice in their mistranslations.Didn't the link help you? You're own english translations and bibles say he drank, tasted. I don't see why your complaining
Maybe...History would have to stand on their side...it doesn't.
Biblican
Well-known member
He spoke to my heart as I read His word also. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, (see Acts 2) and the Lord gave me the gift of prophecy which is a teaching gift and through that He opened my heart and mind to the scriptures. It's very important to know how to co-ordinate them because God has written some of them in parts that have to be connected in order to understand it properly. I guess my Damascus experience would be the Baptism of the Spirit. God also almost electrocuted the pastor who water baptized me and pulled me out of the water Himself.
Listen, I am not saying you are wrong in following God's law, He did not eliminate it. That's what we are supposed to do. What He did was eliminate our justification by it for our soul's salvation. That has to be done through the Messiah (Isaiah 53).
I know from reading much of what you have written you are having trouble understanding it. Do this for me. Picture yourself back in Moses' day and you have to go to the tabernacle to make a sacrifice in order for your sin to be forgiven. You enter it but there are no sacrifices and you can walk straight into the Holy of Holies and there is only one priest, the Messiah. You confess your sins to Him, He forgives you, because He has already made the sacrifice necessary for that forgiveness for that sin and every sin you ever will commit. Now you can leave and follow God's law with all your heart, not because you have to to save your soul, but because you love God and want to do the things that please Him. You also know that because of Messiah's sacrifice, your can confess your sins at anytime without having to sacrifice an animal. And you also know that because of Messiah's sacrifice that unites your soul with His Holy Spirit, your soul can now ascend out of this dimension when you die and be in God's presence. That's what Christianity is all about, it is the tabernacle without you having to make the sacrifices.
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