Kenosis Heresy

[Manfred]

Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

Was he “God and man” during his period of humiliation, or “just man”?

I think you are saying “just man”, but I would like for you to confirm that.

Please clarify "period of humiliation"

I can tell you that at the moment of death He was neither. He was a corpse for 3 days and His Divine nature was preaching to the spirits.
After 3 days He was restored to being both God and man with a brand new glorified body, like those in Christ will have at His return.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

You have not explained anything except to tell me to read verse 5?

I have read it and it talks about some who will claim to be Jehovah's etc.

That takes nothing away from God's saying that He and His redeemer are one God and there are none like Him.

Further, God is the Alpha and the Omega, a title He subscribes to Himself, and He subscribes the Same title to Jesus, just as Jesus subscribes the title of "I am" to himself.

I know you will try and make all sorts of excuses regarding that, as if you were there and witnessed it and you are an expert on the matter.
Well I was not there, but the Pharisees were and we have an account of what exactly they understood Jesus to mean.

If you also want to argue that the death penalty given was not because of blasphemy, then it will show your ignorance of scripture even more.

But I will repeat my first question to you, what do you THINK the context is? Please don't tell me to read verse 5 again, and NOTHING in verse 5 indicates that "and His Redeemer" refers to a made up God.

I can see you are having a problem understanding the co text which is why I gave you the previous verse. That evidently was not enough.

Sometimes it's good to look at various translations. Here in the NET God calls himself Israel's King and also "their protector."


NET Bible
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

I am getting the impression that you are hung up on the English word "redeemer" and thinking anachronisticly.

Do you know what that means?

 

[Manfred]

I can see you are having a problem understanding the co text which is why I gave you the previous verse. That evidently was not enough.

Sometimes it's good to look at various translations. Here in the NET God calls himself Israel's King and also "their protector."


NET Bible
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

I am getting the impression that you are hung up on the English word "redeemer" and thinking anachronisticly.

Do you know what that means?

I have the feeling you are desperate so you have to attack a definition in order to change the clear meaning of scripture.

Do you know what that means.

I also asked me to give context and not just refer to the previous verse.

I will be waiting.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

It’s the Bible and Jesus that you reject hence forfeiting any chdd as nice of salvation with your false christ that sends its followers to hell.

hope this helps !!!

Not in your life, but rather it is your apostate version of both the Bible and Jesus that I reject and I can only thank God he revealed the truth unto me so that I would see your errors to be able to know the difference also.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Before I respond to your full post, can you clarify why you chose to use the NIV translation?
If you go to Bible Hub you can get a direct translation from the Hebrew, word for word.

Fix that, then I will read and respond to your post.

ROFLOL, and I suppose you think that you are the only one who goes to the online Bible Hub huh?

I not only go to the Bible Hub but I also use their Interlinear and Englishman's Concordance so that I know how the Greek and Hebrew words are translated and what they mean or cannot mean in the passages that they are used in throughout the Bible.

Why did you use the NIV for Philippians 2:6 dude?

Oh, I know, it is because the NIV translated "morphe" as nature, and being you want the text to say what your cult teaches, you chose that version so that it would line up with your false doctrine and your false idea of what the Greek word "morphe" means, isn't that right?

I only used the NIV because it is what came up when I looked up the verses this time, but none of the other translations are going help your case or change the meaning on the verses I gave from the NIV.

 

[Manfred]

ROFLOL, and I suppose you think that you are the only one who goes to the online Bible Hub huh?

Why? Because I asked you why you chose the NIV translation?
I never in my life thought I was the only person here to use Bible Hub...
Why on earth would you be rolling around on the floor laughing out loud about that?

After rolling around on the floor laughing out loud, did you take the time to go to Bible Hub and look at the direct translation from the Hebrew, and how it differs from the NIV translation?

Fill me in about what is so funny, I would also like to have such a great laugh.... not at your expense though.

 

[guest1]

Not in your life, but rather it is your apostate version of both the Bible and Jesus that I reject and I can only thank God he revealed the truth unto me so that I would see your errors to be able to know the difference also.

I can promise you that when you stand before Christ at the Judgment you will them know I was 100% correct. But unfortunate for you it will be to late because you have rejected Him your entire life. Those who deny Him Jesus declared the Father will also deny. You are up a creek without a paddle(no Savior) for your sins as per John 8:24. You deny He is the I Am (YHWH) hence its a one way ticket to the lake that burns with Sulphur and conscious eternal torment with the devil and his angels.

next......................

 

[guest1]

ROFLOL, and I suppose you think that you are the only one who goes to the online Bible Hub huh?

I not only go to the Bible Hub but I also use their Interlinear and Englishman's Concordance so that I know how the Greek and Hebrew words are translated and what they mean or cannot mean in the passages that they are used in throughout the Bible.

Why did you use the NIV for Philippians 2:6 dude?

Oh, I know, it is because the NIV translated "morphe" as nature, and being you want the text to say what your cult teaches, you chose that version so that it would line up with your false doctrine and your false idea of what the Greek word "morphe" means, isn't that right?

I only used the NIV because it is what came up when I looked up the verses this time, but none of the other translations are going help your case or change the meaning on the verses I gave from the NIV.

you cannot read Greek or parse a verb. What a joke. you are still a rookie, a little leaguer trying to play in the big leagues rofl.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Why? Because I asked you why you chose the NIV translation?
I never in my life thought I was the only person here to use Bible Hub...
Why on earth would you be rolling around on the floor laughing out loud about that?

After rolling around on the floor laughing out loud, did you take the time to go to Bible Hub and look at the direct translation from the Hebrew, and how it differs from the NIV translation?

Fill me in about what is so funny, I would also like to have such a great laugh.... not at your expense though.

No, because you are a hypocrite in asking me why I used the NIV for Isaiah 46:9-10 and Matthew 24:36 and as though that made any difference, and when you yourself used the NIV for Philippians 2:6 and which does make a big difference being the only way that "morphe" can mean "nature" is in regards to the outward characteristics and appearance and not in regards to actual ontology.

It doesn't make one bit of difference what the original says, for I know what it says and I memorized from the KJV and NASB and know how they read also and they all agree, and Jesus therefore cannot be equal to God if he doesn't know the end from the Beginning as God does and he himself said that only the Father does in agreement with Isaiah 46:9-10 dude.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I have the feeling you are desperate so you have to attack a definition in order to change the clear meaning of scripture.

I have not seen you provide a definition. For what word?

Here is NET again:

NET Bible
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

Do you know what that means.

Yes! You have been refuted.

I also asked me to give context and not just refer to the previous verse.

I will be waiting.

Hope it was worth the wait. You took a verse and assert that the word "redeemer" refers to Jesus.

As you can see the underlying Hebrew has a different sense here, at least according to NET.

So you cannot be dogmatic and if that was the point you're attempting to make it has failed.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I can promise you that when you stand before Christ at the Judgment you will them know I was 100% correct. But unfortunate for you it will be to late because you have rejected Him your entire life. Those who deny Him Jesus declared the Father will also deny. You are up a creek without a paddle(no Savior) for your sins as per John 8:24. You deny He is the I Am (YHWH) hence its a one way ticket to the lake that burns with Sulphur and conscious eternal torment with the devil and his angels.

next......................

You haven't the authority to make any such promises Civic and if I were you, I would be careful how you judge me, for you still have that beam of the flesh in your eye and therefore you are incapable of making judgements by the Spirit of God which was the mind of Christ Jesus also.

Read Matthew 7 and Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 and learn the truth.

 

[guest1]

You haven't the authority to make any such promises Civic and if I were you, I would be careful how you judge me, for you still have that beam of the flesh in your eye and therefore you are incapable of making judgements by the Spirit of God which was the mind of Christ Jesus also.

Read Matthew 7 and Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 and learn the truth.

Sure I do since you reject He is LORD (YHWH) the Only Savior for ones sins. Yet we know God alone is the one and only Savior. I know the TRUTH and you reject the Way, the Truth and the Life.

oops...........................

 

[Manfred]

No, because you are a hypocrite in asking me why I used the NIV for Isaiah 46:9-10 and Matthew 24:36 and as though that made any difference, and when you yourself used the NIV for Philippians 2:6 and which does make a big difference being the only way that "morphe" can mean "nature" is in regards to the outward characteristics and appearance and not in regards to actual ontology.

It doesn't make one bit of difference what the original says, for I know what it says and I memorized from the KJV and NASB and know how they read also and they all agree, and Jesus therefore cannot be equal to God if he doesn't know the end from the Beginning as God does and he himself said that only the Father does in agreement with Isaiah 46:9-10 dude.

I went back and looked and I did indeed use the NIV
I always use the ESV, but my argument was not about nature.

Now I understand what made you roll around laughing out loud.

Here is the ESV
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

Do you now care to address my original point? Perhaps you want to tell me what the original says that differs from the NIV?

Can you loose the attidude, or is that just your nature?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

you cannot read Greek or parse a verb. What a joke. you are still a rookie, a little leaguer trying to play in the big leagues rofl.

Like I said, you should be careful of making your judgments against me, for you are soon enough going to find out who are the real rookies, that goes with any boast that one would make of his Greek or Hebrew knowledge either.

For it isn't the witness of the scriptures plus the witness of ones Greek or Hebrew knowledge that will reveal the truth of God's word unto him, but rather the witness of the scriptures along with the witness of the Holy Spirit.

For the Spirit is able to lead one to the true meaning of the words far beyond what one would learn through their bias academic study and you are very soon going to have to face up to that fact also Civic and I don't need to make any promises about it either.

 

[guest1]

Like I said, you should be careful of making your judgments against me, for you are soon enough going to find out who are the real rookies, that goes with any boast that one would make of his Greek or Hebrew knowledge either.

For it isn't the witness of the scriptures plus the witness of ones Greek or Hebrew knowledge that will reveal the truth of God's word unto him, but rather the witness of the scriptures along with the witness of the Holy Spirit.

For the Spirit is able to lead one to the true meaning of the words far beyond what one would learn through their bias academic study and you are very soon going to have to face up to that fact also Civic and I don't need to make any promises about it either.

I am careful which is why I completely stand behind every jot and tittle in my posts. One of us is wrong and I promise you its not me.

The only spirit that leads you according to John is found in 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 7 since you deny He is God in the flesh. John calls that the very sprit of antichrist which you espouse willingly,

next............................

 

[Manfred]

For the Spirit is able to lead one to the true meaning of the words

Which spirit lead you to believe that Emmanuel means something else than God with us?

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I am careful which is why I completely stand behind every jot and tittle in my posts. One of us is wrong and I promise you its not me.

The only spirit that leads you according to John is found in 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 7 since you deny He is God in the flesh. John calls that the very sprit of antichrist which you espouse willingly,

next............................

Come on guys, is this the Trinity forum or the bickering forum?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I am careful which is why I completely stand behind every jot and tittle in my posts. One of us is wrong and I promise you its not me.

You are right that one of us is wrong and it is you dude, for I have proven right from the 60 times the word "huparchon" as is used in Philippians 2:6, is used in the NT, that it never refers to anything that exists eternally.

For even when Paul uses it for God being "huparchon" the Lord of Heaven and Earth in Acts 17:24, his being Lord of heaven and earth was not an eternal position any more than heaven and earth is eternal, for he had to have created heaven and earth first to become Lord of it.

Again, the same goes for when Paul again uses it in Acts 17:27 "He (God) is "huparchon" not far from any of us, he had to have created us first in order not to be far from any of us and therefore again, his position of not being far from any of us was not eternal.

The same is true for the word "morphe" in Philippians 2:6, for the way that the NT translates this word or it's root or relative words, it never refers to the, substance, essence or ontology but only to what is seen outwardly.

Furthermore, even when it is argued that it can at times refer to the outward characteristics of the inward reality or substance, Jesus in John 14:10 explained for us that the reason why when we saw him, we saw the Father was because the substance of the Father was dwelling within him and doing the works through him and not because he himself was also God.

The only spirit that leads you according to John is found in 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 7 since you deny He is God in the flesh. John calls that the very sprit of antichrist which you espouse willingly,

next............................

ROFLOL, sorry but this passage doesn't help your doctrine either, because John is saying that we must believe that Jesus Christ has come and continues in the flesh and flesh must be understood as what the Bible tells us about flesh and there is no such thing as flesh that is also God and still remains flesh like the Bible reveals flesh.


You are being deceived dude and unfortunately, although you may have been an intelligent person otherwise, your false doctrines have made you quite simple to say the least Civic, for you read right past many things in the scriptures that prove that your doctrine is false but you cannot see them because you have willingly become brainwashed by your false teaching.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Which spirit lead you to believe that Emmanuel means something else than God with us?

ROFLOL, this just shows more of your own Bible illiteracy and ignorance, for this prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was meant to have two fulfillments and its first fulfillment was in Isaiah's second son whose actually name given was Emmanuel and each of Isaiah's sons names were given as messages to both Judah and Jerusalem and Israel of things that God was going to do in their day.

For instance, the message of God in Isaiah's second sons name "Emmanuel" was that although the two Kings mentioned had plotted to overtake Judah and Jerusalem, God would be with them and the conspiracy of those two Kings would not succeed.

Therefore the name is only meant to reveal that God would be with his people in a certain way and in the case of Jesus, it would be that he would through Jesus provide forgiveness and atonement for their sins.

By the way, the Hebrew word "virgin" can either mean a young maiden like Isaiah's wife or an actually virgin as it applies to Mary the mother of Jesus.

Therefore, you are really quite ignorant even though you think that you have it all figured out.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I went back and looked and I did indeed use the NIV
I always use the ESV, but my argument was not about nature.

Now I understand what made you roll around laughing out loud.

Here is the ESV
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

Do you now care to address my original point? Perhaps you want to tell me what the original says that differs from the NIV?

Can you loose the attidude, or is that just your nature?

As soon as you reveal the difference that you think there is between the NIV on Isaiah 46:9-10 and the ESV on Isaiah 46;9-10, for that should be interested being there really isn't any to speak of, and I have looked up the verses many times on the Bible Hub Interlinear also.

Remember, you are the one who asked me why I used the NIV for Isaiah 46:9-10 and as though it was really that different from the original text and so you are the one who needs to explain what you meant by this.


Now then, concerning my attitude, you should know right from the start that I view all who teach un Biblical false doctrines like yours as workers of Satan and those of the worst kind also and I don't believe that I have to be gentle and kind to the Devil and those who are doing his works.

If you were totally ignorant of the scriptures, I would have a different attitude with you, but being you know enough to see the many contradictions that exist in your doctrines and you still will not be honest about them, that makes you a minister of the Devil.


The difference between the ESV and the NIV on Philippians 2:6 is much, much greater than the difference in the NIV and the ESV concerning Isaiah 46:9-10.

Furthermore and no matter how you want to slice it, God's words in Isaiah 46:9-10 and Jesus' words in Matthew 24:36 very clearly reveal that Jesus could not possibly be equal (exactly like) God the Father.