Interpret John 1:1 by John 1:1.

101G said:
ERROR, examine the verse, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

even without context, one can determine the correct association of God.

A. WHO is the "REDEEMER?"... answer God.

B. Who is the LORD of Hosts? the Redeemer, God.

C. WHO is the FIRST and the LAST? answer, GOD.

now the last question, did not God Redeemed us and SAVE us? yes, so who is this "GOD?" answer... C, the Ordinal First, and the Ordinal Last. 101G5
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You can keep dancing around this all you want, you can't get around the possessive pronoun "his" which establish a relationship between the king of Israel and the Lord of hosts. May I suggest, instead of posting the above address "his" and explain how it works in the verse.
 
Towerwatchman said:
Nothing in the text suggests that the first "God" is distinct from the "second.'

God Bless
TWM
Click to expand...
In Trinity world the first "God" is not the second.

In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father.
In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
 
Towerwatchman said:
You can keep dancing around this all you want, you can't get around the possessive pronoun "his" which establish a relationship between the king of Israel and the Lord of hosts. May I suggest, instead of posting the above address "his" and explain how it works in the verse.
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GINOLJC, to all,

first thanks for the reply, and second, it seems you cannot understand the possessive pronoun "his" which establish a relationship between the king of Israel and the Lord of hosts". that relationship YOU speak od is the SAME ONE PERSON.... (smile), because the Loerd of host is the same person, who is King. you asked, "explain how it works in the verse".

question, "Who is the Redeemer? the Lord Jesus .... correct, so is he the Lord OF "HOSTS", let the bible tell us, Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple." Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly." Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:4 "And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke."

who pray tell is this? answer, the Lord Jesus, supportive scripture, John 12:37 "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:" John 12:38 "That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?" John 12:39 "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again," John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." when did he, Isaiah see, .... HIS ... the Lord JESUS ....s GLORY?, answer, Isaiah chapter 6:1-4. Read it again. BINGO.

NOW, Towerwatchman, did you notice in Isaiah 6:1 it is the Lord, only the cap "L" in Lord, but in verse 3 it's the "LORD", all caps who is sitting on the throne.... (smile), IT's the SAME ONE person only diversified flesh, (now, GLORIFIED flesh). one can read this same scene in Revelation chapter 4, and 5. Listen, Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Revelation 4:9 "And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"


saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, now Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.".

are you understanding NOW? ..... my God how hard is it to understand.

listen up, the LORD of .... Hosts, is the ALMIGHTY... got that, and the Lord, in Isaiah 6:1 who is sitting on the throne is God .... now get this, God almighty, who is the FIRST and the Last. scripture, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

did you not KNOW that the LORD of Hosts is the Almighty God, the Lord? who is the Redemmer in Isaiah 44:6, and the same ONE person in Psalms 110:1 and verse 5, who was in Natural flesh, ands resurrected in GLORIFIED flesh? didn't you know that? yes, who is LORD, and Lord? only the Lord, diversified in flesh? didn't you know that? guess not. Oh well, now you know.

so that possessive pronoun just walked out the Door, the one you was promoting..... lol, Oh my God, when will these people ever Learn, but I have HOPE, all Mighty Lord.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Our Lord's God said:
In Trinity world the first "God" is not the second.

In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father.
In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
Click to expand...
Glad to see you back kinda missed you, wondered where you was.

but to business, you said, "In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father". First God?

and then you said, "In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
so you have |TWO Gods, that's polytheism by definition.

now, if what you said is true, (which it is not), then is the Person in John 1:3 who MADE "ALL THINGS", is the same person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE "ALL THINGS?", yes or no.

I just want to eliminate your God(s).

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Our Lord's God said:
In Trinity world the first "God" is not the second.

In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father.
In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
Click to expand...
Strawman. There is no 1st,2nd,3rd god as Trinitarians are not polytheists.
 
civic said:
Strawman. There is no 1st,2nd,3rd god as Trinitarians are not polytheists.
Click to expand...

So...

1.) Does the first mention of the word "God" in John 1:1 refer to a PERSON?

John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I say Yes.

2.) Does the second mention of the word "God" in John 1:1 refer to the same PERSON?

John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I say Yes.
 
Yahchristian said:
So...

1.) Does the first mention of the word "God" in John 1:1 refer to a PERSON?

John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I say Yes.

2.) Does the second mention of the word "God" in John 1:1 refer to the same PERSON?

John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I say Yes.
Click to expand...
Error. NOT the same Person.
 
101G said:
GINOLJC, to all,

first thanks for the reply, and second, it seems you cannot understand the possessive pronoun "his" which establish a relationship between the king of Israel and the Lord of hosts". that relationship YOU speak od is the SAME ONE PERSON.... (smile), because the Loerd of host is the same person, who is King. you asked, "explain how it works in the verse".

question, "Who is the Redeemer? the Lord Jesus .... correct, so is he the Lord OF "HOSTS", let the bible tell us, Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple." Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly." Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:4 "And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke."

who pray tell is this? answer, the Lord Jesus, supportive scripture, John 12:37 "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:" John 12:38 "That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?" John 12:39 "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again," John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." when did he, Isaiah see, .... HIS ... the Lord JESUS ....s GLORY?, answer, Isaiah chapter 6:1-4. Read it again. BINGO.

NOW, Towerwatchman, did you notice in Isaiah 6:1 it is the Lord, only the cap "L" in Lord, but in verse 3 it's the "LORD", all caps who is sitting on the throne.... (smile), IT's the SAME ONE person only diversified flesh, (now, GLORIFIED flesh). one can read this same scene in Revelation chapter 4, and 5. Listen, Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Revelation 4:9 "And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"


saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, now Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.".

are you understanding NOW? ..... my God how hard is it to understand.

listen up, the LORD of .... Hosts, is the ALMIGHTY... got that, and the Lord, in Isaiah 6:1 who is sitting on the throne is God .... now get this, God almighty, who is the FIRST and the Last. scripture, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

did you not KNOW that the LORD of Hosts is the Almighty God, the Lord? who is the Redemmer in Isaiah 44:6, and the same ONE person in Psalms 110:1 and verse 5, who was in Natural flesh, ands resurrected in GLORIFIED flesh? didn't you know that? yes, who is LORD, and Lord? only the Lord, diversified in flesh? didn't you know that? guess not. Oh well, now you know.

so that possessive pronoun just walked out the Door, the one you was promoting..... lol, Oh my God, when will these people ever Learn, but I have HOPE, all Mighty Lord.

PICJAG, 101G.
Click to expand...
I asked you to explain how the possessive pronoun establishes a relationship in 44:6, which you did not explain. What you did explain, in the above, is your explanation of your idea of a relationship.
What you are missing, and would support your theory greatly is how either the author of Isaiah or the authors of the OT used the possessive pronoun 'his', and said use of the possessive pronoun supports your theory.
 
Our Lord's God said:
In Trinity world the first "God" is not the second.

In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father.
In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
Click to expand...
Monotheism = there is only one true God.
  • There are three divine persons called “God” in the Bible.
  • Within the one being that is God there exist eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    • “Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will, and desire.
    • Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God is a being with three centers of self-consciousness each of which can say “I”.
      • I am the Father.
      • I am the Son.
      • I am the Holy Spirit.
        • Each has a first-person perspective.
    • They are three distinct persons.
      • The Father is not identical to the Son or the Holy Spirit.
      • The Son is not identical to the Father or the Holy Spirit
      • The Holy Spirit is not identical to the Son or to the Father.
        • They are not independent of each other they still belong to the same being.
    • Since each is divine they share the attributes of deity.
      • God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
      • The Father is God and not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
      • The Son is God but not the Father or Holy Spirit.
      • The Holy Spirit is God but not the Father or Son.
  • “Co-equal” fully shared the being that is God never one third.
  • “ Coeternal” all three exist within eternity, one did not exist before the other.
    • God= what.
    • Three persons= who.
  • Essence -is properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is; the essence of a thing is that which is expressed by its definition.
  • Existence - whereas the essence gives an answer to the question as to what the thing is, the existence is affirmative to the question as to whether it is.
    • God is eternal, existence is of the essence of God,
    • Essence and existence are identical in God.
  • Nature - is that whereby it acts as it does, the essence considered as the foundation and principle of its operation.
    • Love is a marker of God’s essence.
    • God’s nature is love.
  • Being- signifies the substance of X, what makes X individual.
    • Being” refers to the essential attributes that make God what He is,
      • holy
      • omnipresent
      • omniscient
      • immutable
      • omnipotent
May I suggest you have an understanding of what you criticize before you do.
 
civic said:
Strawman. There is no 1st,2nd,3rd god as Trinitarians are not polytheists.
Click to expand...

Towerwatchman said:
Monotheism = there is only one true God.
Click to expand...

Holy poor context comprehension Batman. In context, he's talking the 1st word translated "God" in and the 2nd word translated "God" in John 1:1 just like the the person he responded to did IN THE 2nd and 3rd POSTS OF THE THREAD.





Here's the flow of the conversation:

TWM said this:

Towerwatchman said:
Nothing in the text suggests that the first "God" is distinct from the "second.'

God Bless
TWM
Click to expand...

To which OLG responded:

Our Lord's God said:
In Trinity world the first "God" is not the second.

In Trinity world the first "God" is a person - the Father.
In Trinity world the second "God" is not a who but a what - a synonym for "divine"
Click to expand...


OLG did not identify trinitarians as polytheists with that post, He simply claimed that in trinity world the first word "God" (and note he used quotes so you would know) in John 1:1 is the Father, and the second word "God" (again in quotes) in John 1:1 is not a who, but a what - a synonym for "divine". And if you don't know where he got it from, ask him, he'll show you, and it will be amusing to me.




(Note: If this is the level of comprehension you guys bring to the bible, please, please please, I'm begging you, go back to grammar school for a couple of years before you pick up your bible the next time.)
 
Stephen said:
Holy poor context comprehension Batman. In context, he's talking the 1st word translated "God" in and the 2nd word translated "God" in John 1:1 just like the the person he responded to did IN THE 2nd and 3rd POSTS OF THE THREAD.





Here's the flow of the conversation:

TWM said this:



To which OLG responded:




OLG did not identify trinitarians as polytheists with that post, He simply claimed that in trinity world the first word "God" (and note he used quotes so you would know) in John 1:1 is the Father, and the second word "God" (again in quotes) in John 1:1 is not a who, but a what - a synonym for "divine". And if you don't know where he got it from, ask him, he'll show you, and it will be amusing to me.




(Note: If this is the level of comprehension you guys bring to the bible, please, please please, I'm begging you, go back to grammar school for a couple of years before you pick up your bible the next time.)
Click to expand...
There is no what in John 1:1 but WHO.
 
Towerwatchman said:
I asked you to explain how the possessive pronoun establishes a relationship in 44:6, which you did not explain. What you did explain, in the above, is your explanation of your idea of a relationship.
What you are missing, and would support your theory greatly is how either the author of Isaiah or the authors of the OT used the possessive pronoun 'his', and said use of the possessive pronoun supports your theory.
Click to expand...
first thanks for the reply, second, LOL, LOL, LOL, in order to have a possessive pronoun, one must first have a "PERSON", and in the Verse in question, there is ONLY ... get this, "ONE" person.... are the Light bulbs coming on now? so the "his" is, as said, in reference to Jaccob, who is Israel in the proceeding verse.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Stephen said:
Holy poor context comprehension Batman. In context, he's talking the 1st word translated "God" in and the 2nd word translated "God" in John 1:1 just like the the person he responded to did IN THE 2nd and 3rd POSTS OF THE THREAD.





Here's the flow of the conversation:

TWM said this:



To which OLG responded:




OLG did not identify trinitarians as polytheists with that post, He simply claimed that in trinity world the first word "God" (and note he used quotes so you would know) in John 1:1 is the Father, and the second word "God" (again in quotes) in John 1:1 is not a who, but a what - a synonym for "divine". And if you don't know where he got it from, ask him, he'll show you, and it will be amusing to me.




(Note: If this is the level of comprehension you guys bring to the bible, please, please please, I'm begging you, go back to grammar school for a couple of years before you pick up your bible the next time.)
Click to expand...
Funny. Now you are OLG's lawyer. Suggest you allow OLG the opportunity to defend his position.
 
101G said:
first thanks for the reply, second, LOL, LOL, LOL, in order to have a possessive pronoun, one must first have a "PERSON", and in the Verse in question, there is ONLY ... get this, "ONE" person.... are the Light bulbs coming on now? so the "his" is, as said, in reference to Jaccob, who is Israel in the proceeding verse.

PICJAG, 101G.
Click to expand...
But here is your problem. The verse does contain the possessive pronoun "his". And following your reasoning to a logical conclusion [see above] we have to persons Yhwh king of Israel and Yhwh Lord of Host claiming to be a unity of one.
 
Towerwatchman said:
But here is your problem. The verse does contain the possessive pronoun "his". And following your reasoning to a logical conclusion [see above] we have to persons Yhwh king of Israel and Yhwh Lord of Host claiming to be a unity of one.
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ERROR, not a UNITY, but the Ordinal in First and Last.

as I been saying, the definition "ONE" in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" is not a UNITY. lets eliminate this nonsense quickly, what is the Opposit of a UNITY? answer, "DIVISION.... hello, so you're saying that God is DIVIDED? ... yes you are, and that's polytheistic in nature.

see, you're arguing for a divided God, which is anti Bible, meaning anti Christ.

so do yourself a favor, and look up the Opposit on "UNITY", and see what you get...

PICJAG, 101G
 
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101G said:
ERROR, not a UNITY, but the Ordinal in First and Last.

as I been saying, the definition "ONE" in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" is not a UNITY. lets eliminate this nonsense quickly, what is the Opposit of a UNITY? answer, "DIVISION.... hello, so you're saying that God is DIVIDED? ... yes you are, and that's polytheistic in nature.

see, you're arguing for a divided God, which is anti Bible, meaning anti Christ.

so do yourself a favor, and look up the Opposit on "UNITY", and see what you get...

PICJAG, 101G
Click to expand...
Re writing your rhetoric does not help your cause one bit.
Allow me to help you.
"His" =belonging to or associated with a male person or animal previously mentioned or easily identified.
Interpretation supersedes grammar, but the grammar has to support the interpretation.
Following the author of Isaiah "YHWH The Lord of Host" is associated with the person previously mentioned "YHWH The King of Israel". Stack you argument as high as you want, you cannot get around the grammar.
 
Towerwatchman said:
Re writing your rhetoric does not help your cause one bit.
Allow me to help you.
"His" =belonging to or associated with a male person or animal previously mentioned or easily identified.
Interpretation supersedes grammar, but the grammar has to support the interpretation.
Following the author of Isaiah "YHWH The Lord of Host" is associated with the person previously mentioned "YHWH The King of Israel". Stack you argument as high as you want, you cannot get around the grammar.
Click to expand...
Thanks, but no thanks, next,

PICJAG, 101G.
 
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