johnny guitar
Well-known member
The Son of God IS The Word and vice versa.
Indeed, The Father and Son are ONE: i.e. The ONE God.
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Indeed, The Father and Son are ONE: i.e. The ONE God.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
NO ONE is born "in the form" of God; ONLY in the form of man.Oh but my purpose was not to understand what you were saying anyhow but you were incorrect on your idea anyhow and a good example was your idea that Isaiah 6:1-5 is Jesus in his supposed pre existing form of God, and you get this false idea from your misinterpretation of John 12 when he speaks of Isaiah seeing the glory of the suffering messiah and quotes Isaiah 53 as what he is speaking of.
My purpose was in making the point that the word "morphe" does not mean what many trins believe it does as "the essential nature" of whatever it is being applied to and Jesus actually revealed for us why when we see him we also see the Father and he never said it was because he was also God and shared his "essential nature".
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
The answer to every why when they saw Jesus they saw the Father was revealed by him in the bold red above and it also reveals whose words Jesus was speaking in verse 9 when he answered Philip and said, "Don't you know me Philip, even after I have been among you for such a long time".
They were the words of the Father himself who was dwelling within Jesus and revealing himself through Jesus, and this is also what Paul meant by saying that Jesus existed in the form of God and not because he was himself God like you falsely believe.
\
That is bunk and it is much the same as saying that there is only one way for a man to exist in the image of God also and it is also by being God
Again, that word existed is "huparchon" and it never refers to things that exist eternally, whether possessions or properties or offices of positions or positions of authority or whatever else it is used for, it never refers to things that don't have a beginning.
Indeed it can mean "existed before" but you also need to remember that everything Paul is saying here is past tense of Jesus' resurrection and all that Paul is saying here is that Jesus existed in one form before he took another and not that he existed from eternity like you falsely want to make his words mean.
Jesus existed from birth in the form of God before choosing to take the form of a servant in order to be like all men and to be able to relate to their sufferings in this life and Hebrews brings this to light also.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
No, a debate forum is for debating what you believe against what others believe and I did understand what he was saying but he was wrong about that also for none of those reference in the OT were references of Jesus existing in the form of God and I have already cover them over and over again on this forum also.What? That's interesting. I thought the whole purpose of these forums was to bring understanding. Hmmm, why would anyone want to discuss anything with you?
So while you are here, how about you making sense over the fact that in Philippians 2:9-11 Paul is revealing that Jesus was rewarded for his obedience unto death with a name above every other name and which is quite obviously something that Jesus never had before this.
So suppose you tell me, how Jesus could have existed as Yahweh God before becoming a man and without always having a name above every other name and by default also as being Yahweh God?
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Morphology: VPPANM-S Strong's: 5225 Transliterated: huparchōn Root: ὑπάρχωSorry but in my last post I meant to include the link to the Bible Hub online and didn't do it for some reason but here it is below.
This skips right to the 60 places that huparchon is used in the NT and reveals how it is used and what it is used to mean and nowhere in the 60 occurrences that it is used in the NT does it ever refer to anything eternal and which never have a beginning period.
1) to begin below, to make a beginning 1a) to begin 2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand 3) to be
Bible.org Greek lexicon
Phil 2: 6 who, though he existed in the form of God,-
Notes- The Greek term translated form indicates a correspondence with reality. Thus the meaning of this phrase is that Christ was truly God.
From Bible.org, the Net bible notes
In a prior post, I did give you 3 sets of scriptures from the OT and NT that spoke of YHWH in the OT and the NT authors related those OT scriptures of YHWH to Jesus in the NT. One of those sets of scriptures is from Phil 2:10, Romans 14:11 and Isa 45:18-23 (YHWH is speaking)No, a debate forum is for debating what you believe against what others believe and I did understand what he was saying but he was wrong about that also for none of those reference in the OT were references of Jesus existing in the form of God and I have already cover them over and over again on this forum also.
So while you are here, how about you making sense over the fact that in Philippians 2:9-11 Paul is revealing that Jesus was rewarded for his obedience unto death with a name above every other name and which is quite obviously something that Jesus never had before this.
So suppose you tell me, how Jesus could have existed as Yahweh God before becoming a man without always having a name above every other name and by default also as being Yahweh God?
I guessed you missed them.
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johnny guitar
Well-known member
Amen!And not only "in" the form of God, but "existing" in the form of God...it is not possible for anything to exist in the form of God other than God...it just isn't possible.
TheLayman
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
No, the Greek word "morphe" means what the use of the word in the scripture reveal about it and that is outward visible characteristics that God also has in his nature as God and again, Jesus revealed why when we see him we see God the Father also and he did so in John 14:10 and he said it was because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus.Morphology: VPPANM-S Strong's: 5225 Transliterated: huparchōn Root: ὑπάρχω
1) to begin below, to make a beginning 1a) to begin 2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand 3) to be
Bible.org Greek lexicon
Phil 2: 6 who, though he existed in the form of God,-
Notes- The Greek term translated form indicates a correspondence with reality. Thus the meaning of this phrase is that Christ was truly God.
From Bible.org, the Net bible notes
This happened because Jesus emptied himself of himself so that only the Father would be manifested through him outwardly and that is also why Paul called Jesus "The image of the invisible God".
Now again, while you are here, how about you making sense out of the fact that in Philippians 2:9-11 Paul is revealing that Jesus was rewarded for his obedience unto death with a name above every other name and which is quite obviously something that Jesus never had before this.
So suppose you tell me, how Jesus could have existed as Yahweh God before becoming a man and without always having a name above every other name and by default also as being Yahweh God?
That brings us to this point also, for if Jesus always did have a name above every other name as being Yahweh God like you claim, then why does Paul say that he received this after his obedience unto death and for his obedience unto death?
In other words, how could it have been a reward for his obedience being if he were truly Yahweh God, he would have always had a name above all others to start with?
Tanachreader
Well-known member
Garbage!No, the Greek word "morphe" means what the use of the word in the scripture reveal about it and that is outward visible characteristics that God also has in his nature as God and again, Jesus revealed why when we see him we see God the Father also and he did so in John 14:10 and he said it was because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus.
This happened because Jesus emptied himself of himself so that only the Father would be manifested through him outwardly and that is also why Paul called Jesus "The image of the invisible God".
Now again, while you are here, how about you making sense out of the fact that in Philippians 2:9-11 Paul is revealing that Jesus was rewarded for his obedience unto death with a name above every other name and which is quite obviously something that Jesus never had before this.
So suppose you tell me, how Jesus could have existed as Yahweh God before becoming a man and without always having a name above every other name and by default also as being Yahweh God?
That brings us to this point also, for if Jesus always did have a name above every other name as being Yahweh God like you claim, then why does Paul say that he received this after his obedience unto death and for his obedience unto death?
In other words, how could it have been a reward for his obedience being if he were truly Yahweh God, he would have always had a name above all others to start with?
Jesus is the Word, not some man robot of God!
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Right off the bat and once again being your first reference is to Philippians 2:10 how in verse 9 could it be said that Jesus received a name above every other name as a reward for his obedience unto death if indeed he always existed as Yahweh God and would have always had a name above every name anyhow?In a prior post, I did give you 3 sets of scriptures from the OT and NT that spoke of YHWH in the OT and the NT authors related those OT scriptures of YHWH to Jesus in the NT. One of those sets of scriptures is from Phil 2:10, Romans 14:11 and Isa 45:18-23 (YHWH is speaking)
I guessed you missed them.
You simply do not understand the context of Isaiah 45:18-23 and that is why you are also totally confused about it.
For it is all about God's sending Cyrus and which by the way, he also called "his Messiah or as interpreted "anointed one", then if you read the context closely you will see that God raises up Cyrus as a type of Christ and brings all the people under servitude to him as God's appointed Lord over them.
If you read closely you will see that the people are made to bow to Cyrus and by doing so, they are in turn also bowing to God and this isn't about they doing it willfully either but neither is this the case with what Paul says about Jesus in Philippians 2:9-11 either.
For whether they are believers or not and whether they are righteous or not, they will all bow to Jesus Christ and also by doing so, they will likewise bow to Yahweh because of it and this is exactly what they did with Cyrus whom God appointed to be Lord over all those people likewise and that is how it fits with Jesus in both passages.
NVMRight off the bat and once again being your first reference is to Philippians 2:10 how in verse 9 could it be said that Jesus received a name above every other name as a reward for his obedience unto death if indeed he always existed as Yahweh God and would have always had a name above every name anyhow?
You simply do not understand the context of Isaiah 45:18-23 and that is why you are also totally confused about it.
For it is all about God's sending Cyrus and which by the way, he also called "his Messiah or as interpreted "anointed one", then if you read the context closely you will see that God raises up Cyrus as a type of Christ and brings all the people under servitude to him as God's appointed Lord over them.
If you read closely you will see that the people are made to bow to Cyrus and by doing so, they are in turn also bowing to God and this isn't about they doing it willfully either but neither is this the case with what Paul says about Jesus in Philippians 2:9-11 either.
For whether they are believers or not and whether they are righteous or not, they will all bow to Jesus Christ and also by doing so, they will likewise bow to Yahweh because of it and this is exactly what they did with Cyrus whom God appointed to be Lord over all those people likewise and that is how it fits with Jesus in both passages.
Are you aware that some passages in the OT can have present and future meanings?
Why would Paul relate this verse from Isa 45 to Jesus? God gave Jesus his own name, YHWH. Jesus means YHWH savior. In Isaiah YHWH said every knee with bow to Him. In Philippians every knee with bow to Jesus and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (or YHWH). I almost didn't give an explanation. *sigh
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. NRSV
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johnny guitar
Well-known member
They will WORSHIP Jesus Christ and by doing so they will glorify The Father.Right off the bat and once again being your first reference is to Philippians 2:10 how in verse 9 could it be said that Jesus received a name above every other name as a reward for his obedience unto death if indeed he always existed as Yahweh God and would have always had a name above every name anyhow?
You simply do not understand the context of Isaiah 45:18-23 and that is why you are also totally confused about it.
For it is all about God's sending Cyrus and which by the way, he also called "his Messiah or as interpreted "anointed one", then if you read the context closely you will see that God raises up Cyrus as a type of Christ and brings all the people under servitude to him as God's appointed Lord over them.
If you read closely you will see that the people are made to bow to Cyrus and by doing so, they are in turn also bowing to God and this isn't about they doing it willfully either but neither is this the case with what Paul says about Jesus in Philippians 2:9-11 either.
For whether they are believers or not and whether they are righteous or not, they will all bow to Jesus Christ and also by doing so, they will likewise bow to Yahweh because of it and this is exactly what they did with Cyrus whom God appointed to be Lord over all those people likewise and that is how it fits with Jesus in both passages.
The Son MUST be worshipped or The Father will NOT be honored.
No, Jesus wasn't a puppet. He spoke of himself many times as "I".No, the Greek word "morphe" means what the use of the word in the scripture reveal about it and that is outward visible characteristics that God also has in his nature as God and again, Jesus revealed why when we see him we see God the Father also and he did so in John 14:10 and he said it was because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus.
This happened because Jesus emptied himself of himself so that only the Father would be manifested through him outwardly and that is also why Paul called Jesus "The image of the invisible God".
Now again, while you are here, how about you making sense out of the fact that in Philippians 2:9-11 Paul is revealing that Jesus was rewarded for his obedience unto death with a name above every other name and which is quite obviously something that Jesus never had before this.
So suppose you tell me, how Jesus could have existed as Yahweh God before becoming a man and without always having a name above every other name and by default also as being Yahweh God?
That brings us to this point also, for if Jesus always did have a name above every other name as being Yahweh God like you claim, then why does Paul say that he received this after his obedience unto death and for his obedience unto death?
In other words, how could it have been a reward for his obedience being if he were truly Yahweh God, he would have always had a name above all others to start with?
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
ROFLOL, it didn't require him to be a puppet either, for he had a will of his own just like any man does but he Loved God and because he loved God and therefore also men and women, he chose to empty himself of himself in order that God would be manifested in and through him and a puppet could never do that.No, Jesus wasn't a puppet. He spoke of himself many times as "I".
If God was truly speaking through Jesus every time he spoke, there are so many verses that would defeat your argument. I'm not going to waste my time.ROFLOL, it didn't require him to be a puppet either, for he had a will of his own just like any man does but he Loved God and because he loved God and therefore also men and women, he chose to empty himself of himself in order that God would be manifested in and through him and a puppet could never do that.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Didn't you read what I said and didn't you read the context of Isaiah 45 and which first was a reference to Cyrus before it was for Jesus also?NVM
Why would Paul relate this verse from Isa 45 to Jesus? God gave Jesus his own name, YHWH. Jesus means YHWH savior. In Isaiah YHWH said every knee with bow to Him. In Philippians every knee with bow to Jesus and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (or YHWH). I almost didn't give an explanation. *sigh
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
I'll tell you what, being you refuse to answer my question concerning the name above every name that your passage very clearly states that Jesus was given as a reward for his obedience unto death and how if he always existed as Yahweh God he wouldn't have always had a name above every other anyhow.
I will help you to see how your passage from Isaiah 45 fits with Jesus by posting it and pointing out how it was first fulfilled as a type and in a partial sense for that day and age through Cyrus, so that you can see how it also fits with Christ Jesus but you first need to answer my question about the name above every name issue.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Where did I say that it was every time he spoke??If God was truly speaking through Jesus every time he spoke, there are so many verses that would defeat your argument. I'm not going to waste my time.
No, for Jesus still had to reveal himself for the simple reason that it is only through him that we can come to God, but that is the only reason why he did also, for in every other sense he came to reveal the Father and therefore the bottom line for our worship is not Jesus but the Father.
However let me make this clear also, for even what he did say about himself was also given to him by instruction from the Father as well and Jesus himself said this, for he never spoke anything on his own without being instructed by the Father in what to say but again, he did this by his own choice.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
If you want to deny this, you are then denying what Jesus himself stated in verse 49 above.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Who said he was a robot, for he had a will just like all men have a will but what he did, he did by choice and by the power of God that dwelt within him by the Holy Spirit and so he was not forced to do it at all.Garbage!
Jesus is the Word, not some man robot of God!
His prayer before he died when he said "if it be your will, let this cup pass from me" fully expresses that he had his own will and choice to make in it and was not forced by God or anyone else to do it either.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
John 8:58 KJV — Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Who said he was a robot, for he had a will just like all men have a will but what he did, he did by choice and by the power of God that dwelt within him by the Holy Spirit and so he was not forced to do it at all.
His prayer before he died when he said "if it be your will, let this cup pass from me" fully expresses that he had his own will and choice to make in it and was not forced by God or anyone else to do it either.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
But that all started with him revealing that Abraham received a vision from God of Jesus coming to Israel and rejoiced over it and was glad when he saw it and upon this, the Jews looking to find something to accuse him by answered him saying "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham"?John 8:58 KJV — Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
So Jesus was speaking of God's vision of him that Abraham saw and not that Abraham ever met Jesus or Jesus ever met Abraham and that vision of God that Abraham saw was the first vision that God ever had before creating anything that he created and therefore in his plan and vision, Jesus was standing before them in the first person present tense before Abraham was in his time.
By this Jesus was revealing that he was firstborn with God in the same way that this same word "firstborn" is used many times to refer to the one who is firstborn in God's vision and purpose in creation and having absolutely nothing to do with who is actually born first in the order of created time and such was the case with Jacob and Esau also.
Therefore because it is clearly taught in the scriptures, you are without excuse for not accepting it.
By the way and once again, if you read the context, shortly before he said this, he also told them that they were not able to understand what he was saying and therefore don't give me the bit that they understood him perfectly because in saying that you are making Jesus a liar and like you will become if you say that they did understand him.
The Real John Milton
Well-known member
God bless you for this insight .So Jesus was speaking of God's vision of him that Abraham saw and not that Abraham ever met Jesus or Jesus ever met Abraham and that vision of God that Abraham saw was the first vision that God ever had before creating anything that he created and therefore in his plan and vision, Jesus was standing before them in the first person present tense before Abraham was in his time.
By this Jesus was revealing that he was firstborn with God in the same way that this same word "firstborn" is used many times to refer to the one who is firstborn in God's vision and purpose in creation and having absolutely nothing to do with who is actually born first in the order of created time and such was the case with Jacob and Esau also.
Therefore because it is clearly taught in the scriptures, you are without excuse for not accepting it.
By the way and once again, if you read the context, shortly before he said this, he also told them that they were not able to understand what he was saying and therefore don't give me the bit that they understood him perfectly because in saying that you are making Jesus a liar and like you will become if you say that they did understand him.