"The" Cosmological Argument

[SteveB]

But then you must think to a degree at least that He exists. I don't, so whenever I try it, I get nothing.

That's a choice you have to decide for yourself.

I simply had no idea if he existed or not.

I was pretty clear that I thought christianity was just another pile of religious bs. I wanted to know specifically if he was real and if the Jesus stuff I'd been hearing about was real or just another pile of religious bs.

Seems like you're trying to pinch a loaf about something you don't actually want to know about.

You have repeatedly said that you don't believe YHVH exists.

In this "knowledge" of yours.... are you saying that you know he doesn't exist or that you simply have no idea if he exists?

Then, if he actually does exist, would you want to know him or are you satisfied with not knowing him?

Don't try justifying it. He knows what you really think and want.

To me it was simply a matter of whether or not he is a real being and if the whole Jesus thing was legit.

I wanted nothing to do with man-made religious ideas.

Was he a dyed in the wool atheist? Atheist maybe but dyed in the wool?

?
?
??‍

Well, I have no idea what the reference means in Britain, but in the western United states, it means someone who is completely certain.

As an atheist I can't even ask because I really don't think God is there.

Well, there's your answer.
It's got nothing to do with whether YHVH is real and knowable. It's entirely that you're not going to give yourself permission to ask him.

Pity. I'd have thought you were actually courageous enough to ask him and be genuinely interested in knowing.

This is what I'd say is biased preconception.

I'm not the one who has confirmation bias. You are.

He could ask because he emotionally open to the idea as shown by the following.

Actually, he already has. For at least the past 12 years. And as I recall, it's been daily, several times a day.

He even says as much

Isa 65:2-3 WEB 2 I have spread out my hands all day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; 3 a people who provoke me to my face continually, .....


You keep telling him no.

So, at this point, he's leaving it in your court.

Here is a quote from an article about his life …


Every atheist I know doesn't have a yearning inside them for a higher power. It sounds like he was emotionally open to the ideas of God all the time. Reading his conversion story, it's all emotion and no evidence just like adherents of other religions.

When was that article written?

Actually, the evidence is that YHVH showed up and made himself known to us. Otherwise, we all would have had entirely different lives.

It's plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 1:21

1Co 1:21 WEB For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Intellectual ideas alone don't have any power to know whether He is real and knowable or not.

I've actually explained this to you several times before.

According to Isaiah 40:12, YHVH holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand.
According to Isaiah 57:15, he inhabits eternity and yet he dwells with the humble and contrite people.

So, just how do you think human beings can fathom the eternal God, who is so huge that he holds the entirety of the cosmos in his hand? Furthermore he's made it clear that the only way to know him is if he makes it possible. According to Jeremiah 24:7, he will give you a heart to know him. You however just said you aren't going to ask him. He further stated in Jeremiah 29:11-13, that on the day that you seek him with a whole heart, on THAT day, he will be found by you.
So... you have to decide whether you want to know him or not.

Is that what it was for you? You're never specific so it's hard to know.

I asked. He responded. He responded in exactly the way the bible says he will.

I've repeatedly stated that several hundred times before.

 

[SteveB]

Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

Pity you skipped over that pronoun prefacing the commandments word...

What does Jesus say HIS commandments are?

All kinds of stuff - what are the steps to find God?

I've already explained it.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

I just personally do not love anyone who drowns babies and watches people die slowly of cancer.

Then you should stop believing lies.

Ah - so God's idea of love is not our idea of 'extreme fondness'. It seems closer to the human concept of psychopathy. So whenever The Bible says 'God's love' what they are really saying is 'God's psychopathy'

Interesting....
Since you have already decided that lies are more important than the truth, I'd say that you have already chosen what you want.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

I have no idea. Do you know? Can you teach me please?

I have no idea. Do you know? Can you teach me please?

It's all contained in the bible.

I'd be happy to teach you. You however have to decide whether you want to know the truth or continue to cling to the lies you believe.

 

[Whatsisface]

That's a choice you have to decide for yourself.

I simply had no idea if he existed or not.

There you are, my point exactly. I really don't think He's there, but you were more ambivalent so open to the idea.

I was pretty clear that I thought christianity was just another pile of religious bs. I wanted to know specifically if he was real and if the Jesus stuff I'd been hearing about was real or just another pile of religious bs.

First, you were pretty clear Christianity was BS, then, you wanted to know if He was real or BS. Those are two different states of mind as far as God existence is concerned. You sound confused on this point. I suspect you were open to the idea to a degree.

You have repeatedly said that you don't believe YHVH exists.

In this "knowledge" of yours.... are you saying that you know he doesn't exist or that you simply have no idea if he exists?

Neither. I'm saying I strongly don't believe He exists.

Then, if he actually does exist, would you want to know him or are you satisfied with not knowing him?

I'm not quite sure what Knowing Him means. However, if it was shown that He exists, I would certainly believe, but would not worship Him.

The rest of your post I've snipped because you haven't bothered to put your answers under the relevant quotes from me. It makes replying difficult when the context is lost.

I asked. He responded. He responded in exactly the way the bible says he will.

I've repeatedly stated that several hundred times before.

Yes, but it's vague so unconvincing.

 

[SteveB]

There you are, my point exactly. I really don't think He's there, but you were more ambivalent so open to the idea.

Pro 28:26 WEB One who trusts in himself is a fool; but one who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

Sounds like you have a serious problem then.

Better to be open to what you don't know, than to believe you know, and have no idea.

Congratulations! This is exactly what makes you a fool.

First, you were pretty clear Christianity was BS, then, you wanted to know if He was real or BS. Those are two different states of mind as far as God existence is concerned.

Curious how you cannot understand the nature of difference between an idea and a person.

You sound confused on this point. I suspect you were open to the idea to a degree.

Sounds like you are simply closed to truth.

I was open to the person introducing themselves to me.

I'd deal with ideas later. My goal was to learn if he was real or not.

Neither. I'm saying I strongly don't believe He exists.

Ok. Thank you for clarifying.

I'm not quite sure what Knowing Him means. However, if it was shown that He exists, I would certainly believe, but would not worship Him.

It's a relationship between YHVH and the human being.

Jesus said that he will become our brother, His Father becomes our heavenly Father, and we are adopted by God as his sons and daughters.

Jesus described this relationship as our needing to be born spiritually.

Jesus further stated,
God is a Spirit, and he that worships God must worship him in spirit and in truth. For the Father seeks such to worship him.

The rest of your post I've snipped because you haven't bothered to put your answers under the relevant quotes from me. It makes replying difficult when the context is lost.

Yes, but it's vague so unconvincing.

Sounds like you have a problem with reading comprehension.

It's not that difficult to understand.

 

[Tiburon]

Such as?

Such as bending Biblical time lines to try and match those from other sources. Claiming that rulers were known by different names (without evidence) so that they match those in the Bible etc.

You've been on this forum for a long time now.

You've had plenty of time and opportunity to engage YHVH for yourself. Yet you obviously haven't done so.

I engaged YHVH before I got to these forums.
I came here seeking to answers to bolster my faith.

Really? And what have I said that you have done?

I engaged Jesus as it says in the Bible.
I didn't just go "Hello God, are you real"?
I came to him already believing that he was.

Curious.....

Knocked on the door....

?.....

Jesus said,

Ask and you shall receive.
Seek and you will find.
Knock and the door will be open.

If the door you knocked on wasn't opened, then my question would become....

Which door did you knock on?

The green one at the end of the alley off Beech street.
Isn't that the one?

 

[Eightcrackers]

I think the time is long, long past for you to stop equivocating and just tell us, specifically, how to engage God so that he will be revealed.

So - what are the specific steps you took to engage God? If you are vague and say 'do what the Bible says' then we know you have no idea how to engage God - you just seem to like shouting 'get off yer duff!' and 'do what Jesus says!' and insulting atheists. Which is fine I guess if that is fun for you. But it does not make it seem like you are in touch with a god.

Anyhoo, so, step one is to engage God is....?

Perhaps we should stipulate "... in your own words" to forestall this tiresome "what the Bible says" dodge...

 

[Komodo]

I think the time is long, long past for you to stop equivocating and just tell us, specifically, how to engage God so that he will be revealed.

So - what are the specific steps you took to engage God? If you are vague and say 'do what the Bible says' then we know you have no idea how to engage God - you just seem to like shouting 'get off yer duff!' and 'do what Jesus says!' and insulting atheists. Which is fine I guess if that is fun for you. But it does not make it seem like you are in touch with a god.

Anyhoo, so, step one is to engage God is....?

There was one time when @SteveB actually gave something which kind of looked like a specific answer: he said we should read the Gospel of John, then talk to God about it. This led to the following dialogue:

ME: Do I need to read it in any particular way, or talk to God in any particular way?
STEVE: Just read it as you normally read, talk as you normally talk.
ME [a day or so later]: OK, I've read the Gospel of John, and I've talked to God.* I didn't get any response.

Steve's answer was... no answer. At least none that remains on the board.

*[That is, I asked the same question Steve did: "God, are you real?"]

 

[Lucian]

I suppose I'm skeptical that the best work contemporary philosophers of religion have to offer on the cosmological argument could be significantly superior to all the work that's gone before. If we're talking about contemporary medical research, there are so many things going on in the body and so many possible combinations of organic chemicals that I'm not at all surprised when I read that there's been a breakthrough in the fight against some disease, employing compounds which hadn't ever been synthesized in a way which exploits a metabolic response which hadn't ever been studied in depth. But with the cosmological argument, the basic elements are so much more limited: cause - beginning - things. How many ways can there be of talking about those? Ways which nobody's hit on over 2,500 years?

And if I'm wrong and somebody is doing something strikingly different in that area, I have some faith that this won't be confined forever to an academic bubble. People are interested in God. Newspapers know that news about God has an audience.

I'm not making claims about the concept of 'progress' within philosophy, though I think it's a defensible view that there has been much (e.g. the distinction between contemporary explorations of modality versus the incipient form of this in Parmenides). Rather, I'm drawing a distinction between 'pop' philosophy of religion and the academic work of professional philosophers. You'll find some of the former in places like this; you'll struggle to find anything more than echoes of the latter.

That works both ways, though. Atheists also make painfully callow arguments, usually surrounding the problem of evil.

 

[Komodo]

I'm not making claims about the concept of 'progress' within philosophy, though I think it's a defensible view that there has been much (e.g. the distinction between contemporary explorations of modality versus the incipient form of this in Parmenides). Rather, I'm drawing a distinction between 'pop' philosophy of religion and the academic work of professional philosophers. You'll find some of the former in places like this; you'll struggle to find anything more than echoes of the latter.

That works both ways, though. Atheists also make painfully callow arguments, usually surrounding the problem of evil.

I wouldn't dispute any of that. My own field is literature, so maybe the analogy would be: if you look at some of the academic literature on Shakespeare and his times, there's been a lot of genuinely new and interesting work in the last 40 years or so, e.g. about how aware Shakespeare was of colonial efforts in the New World, and how this influenced The Tempest. If you look in the "Arts & Culture" sections of big newspapers and journals, or at Shakespeare talk on Twitter, you'll get some echoes of that. (Actually in my experience you're better off on Twitter than on the New York Times if you want to follow those discussions, but leave that aside for now.) But if there had been some breakthrough in academic research like a decisive proof that Francis Bacon wrote it all, it would filter up through the Arts & Culture sections, it would get on TV, and people who were interested in Shakespeare's plays (or Bacon's, I guess) wouldn't be able to avoid hearing about it.

ETA: No, I don't actually take seriously the possibility that we're going to find out that Bacon or Oxford or any of the usual or unusual suspects really wrote the plays or poems.

 

[Eightcrackers]

There was one time when @SteveB actually gave something which kind of looked like a specific answer: he said we should read the Gospel of John, then talk to God about it. This led to the following dialogue:

ME: Do I need to read it in any particular way, or talk to God in any particular way?
STEVE: Just read it as you normally read, talk as you normally talk.
ME [a day or so later]: OK, I've read the Gospel of John, and I've talked to God.* I didn't get any response.

Steve's answer was... no answer. At least none that remains on the board.

*[That is, I asked the same question Steve did: "God, are you real?"]

"You didn't ask sincerely/humbly."

The Bible has an answer for everything.

 

[Torin]

@Komodo

If you are interested in actually seeing a sophisticated contemporary cosmological argument yourself, you could look up Alexander Pruss' Leibnizian Cosmological Argument. This argument constitutes one of the longest and most detailed chapters of the book entitled The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology.

The book is expensive. Thankfully, with Christian charity Dr. Pruss has made his entire chapter available for free on his website.

Leibnizian Cosmological Arguments

alexanderpruss.com

I've never seen this argument presented competently here. It's rare for it to even be mentioned... and I think I'm probably the only person who has mentioned it.

 

[Gus Bovona]

Contentless Vagary is a great band name. Just sayin'.

I saw them on a double-bill with Vacuous Fustian

 

[SteveB]

Such as bending Biblical time lines to try and match those from other sources. Claiming that rulers were known by different names (without evidence) so that they match those in the Bible etc.

You're going to have to show me where I did this.

I engaged YHVH before I got to these forums.
I came here seeking to answers to bolster my faith.

Sounds like you allowed others to define your faith instead of God's Word and His Spirit.
I hope you work through it before you pass into eternity.

I engaged Jesus as it says in the Bible.
I didn't just go "Hello God, are you real"?
I came to him already believing that he was.

Ok. And?
According to John 6, Jesus said he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.
According to John 8, in order to know the truth, we need to continue to follow him and his teachings.

The green one at the end of the alley off Beech street.
Isn't that the one?

Never heard of it. ??‍

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Pity you skipped over that pronoun prefacing the commandments word...

What does Jesus say HIS commandments are?

I clearly am getting it wrong and you either you cannot teach me or this is equivocation. Neither is very interesting.

Interesting....
Since you have already decided that lies are more important than the truth, I'd say that you have already chosen what you want.

So anyone who does not accept Jesus based on no evidence is a believer of lies? And you think that is a rational way to view people with whom you disagree?

OK.

It's all contained in the bible.

Like this?

"Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

Um...I do not really want to bash infants to pieces. Or violate women against their will. Are you sure this is a positive religion?

I'd be happy to teach you. You however have to decide whether you want to know the truth or continue to cling to the lies you believe.

If you were a science professor your teaching method would be to yell at the students to read the textbook. When they get it wrong you yell for them to read it again. And again. And you never show them the correct way to solve the problem.

That is not teaching.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

There was one time when @SteveB actually gave something which kind of looked like a specific answer: he said we should read the Gospel of John, then talk to God about it. This led to the following dialogue:

ME: Do I need to read it in any particular way, or talk to God in any particular way?
STEVE: Just read it as you normally read, talk as you normally talk.
ME [a day or so later]: OK, I've read the Gospel of John, and I've talked to God.* I didn't get any response.

Steve's answer was... no answer. At least none that remains on the board.

*[That is, I asked the same question Steve did: "God, are you real?"]

I find him to be fascinating. He has zero proof to demonstrate that he has some kind of superior (and that is a big part of it), supernatural knowledge that is beyond modern science. And yet he posts here every day with nothing to back his claims. And he shamelessly talks as though his outlandish, unproven, unverified claims of god-like knowledge are just fact.

And if we do not believe him then he lets the ad hominins and appeal to force fallacies fly because he has nothing else.

I do not expect straight answers from someone whose entire ideology is based on nothing they can prove. But it is fascinating to watch how far into bluster, self-delusion, and outright rage someone will go to in order to avoid saying one simple thing:

"I may be wrong about God."

 

[SteveB]

I clearly am getting it wrong and you either you cannot teach me or this is equivocation. Neither is very interesting.

Jesus was quite clear....

If you keep MY ...

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

So, no equivocation about it!

Pity you find truth uninteresting.

So anyone who does not accept Jesus based on no evidence is a believer of lies?

Well, since you are believing lies already, to base your unbelief on, I'd say that you are destroying yourself.

YHVH gave me evidence that he is real and knowable and that Jesus is the truth.

So, if you don't actually want to know the truth, because you prefer believing lies, it seems to me that your problem is your own beliefs.

And you think that is a rational way to view people with whom you disagree?

I'm thinking that if you prefer believing lies to justify the lie of your unbelief, then you have created your own problem.

OK.

Like this?

"Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

Pity you have ignored the context, and the rest of the problem.

YHVH warned them that if they ignored his law, he would turn his back on them, and their enemies would wreak havoc on them.

Deu 28:1-68 WEB 1 It shall happen, if you shall listen diligently to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all his commandments which I command you today, that Yahweh your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you, and overtake you, if you listen to Yahweh your God’s voice. 3 You shall be blessed in the city, and you shall be blessed in the field. 4 You shall be blessed in the fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the fruit of your animals, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock. 5 Your basket and your kneading trough shall be blessed. 6 You shall be blessed when you come in, and you shall be blessed when you go out. 7 Yahweh will cause your enemies who rise up against you to be struck before you. They will come out against you one way, and will flee before you seven ways. 8 Yahweh will command the blessing on you in your barns, and in all that you put your hand to. He will bless you in the land which Yahweh your God gives you. 9 Yahweh will establish you for a holy people to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you shall keep the commandments of Yahweh your God, and walk in his ways. 10 All the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by Yahweh’s name, and they will be afraid of you. 11 Yahweh will grant you abundant prosperity in the fruit of your body, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your ground, in the land which Yahweh swore to your fathers to give you. 12 Yahweh will open to you his good treasure in the sky, to give the rain of your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You will lend to many nations, and you will not borrow. 13 Yahweh will make you the head, and not the tail. You will be above only, and you will not be beneath, if you listen to the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you today, to observe and to do, 14 and shall not turn away from any of the words which I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come on you and overtake you. 16 You will be cursed in the city, and you will be cursed in the field. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock will be cursed. 19 You will be cursed when you come in, and you will be cursed when you go out. 20 Yahweh will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you put your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the evil of your doings, by which you have forsaken me. 21 Yahweh will make the pestilence cling to you, until he has consumed you from off the land where you go in to possess it. 22 Yahweh will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with fiery heat, with the sword, with blight, and with mildew. They will pursue you until you perish. 23 Your sky that is over your head will be bronze, and the earth that is under you will be iron. 24 Yahweh will make the rain of your land powder and dust. It will come down on you from the sky, until you are destroyed. 25 Yahweh will cause you to be struck before your enemies. You will go out one way against them, and will flee seven ways before them. You will be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your dead bodies will be food to all birds of the sky, and to the animals of the earth; and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 Yahweh will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with the tumors, with the scurvy, and with the itch, of which you can not be healed. 28 Yahweh will strike you with madness, with blindness, and with astonishment of heart. 29 You will grope at noonday, as the blind gropes in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. You will only be oppressed and robbed always, and there will be no one to save you. 30 You will betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her. You will build a house, and you won’t dwell in it. You will plant a vineyard, and not use its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slain before your eyes, and you will not eat any of it. Your donkey will be violently taken away from before your face, and will not be restored to you. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and you will have no one to save you. 32 Your sons and your daughters will be given to another people. Your eyes will look, and fail with longing for them all day long. There will be no power in your hand. 33 A nation which you don’t know will eat the fruit of your ground and all of your work. You will only be oppressed and crushed always, 34 so that the sights that you see with your eyes will drive you mad. 35 Yahweh will strike you in the knees and in the legs with a sore boil, of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36 Yahweh will bring you, and your king whom you will set over yourselves, to a nation that you have not known, you nor your fathers. There you will serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where Yahweh will lead you away. 38 You will carry much seed out into the field, and will gather little in, for the locust will consume it. 39 You will plant vineyards and dress them, but you will neither drink of the wine, nor harvest, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout all your borders, but you won’t anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives will drop off. 41 You will father sons and daughters, but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity. 42 Locusts will consume all of your trees and the fruit of your ground. 43 The foreigner who is among you will mount up above you higher and higher, and you will come down lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, and you won’t lend to him. He will be the head, and you will be the tail.

 

[SteveB]

45 All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you didn’t listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you. 46 They will be for a sign and for a wonder to you and to your offspring forever. 47 Because you didn’t serve Yahweh your God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things; 48 therefore you will serve your enemies whom Yahweh sends against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in lack of all things. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 Yahweh will bring a nation against you from far, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies: a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce facial expressions, that doesn’t respect the elderly, nor show favor to the young. 51 They will eat the fruit of your livestock and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed. They also won’t leave you grain, new wine, oil, the increase of your livestock, or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish. 52 They will besiege you in all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout all your land. They will besiege you in all your gates throughout all your land which Yahweh your God has given you. 53 You will eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters, whom Yahweh your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies will distress you. 54 The man who is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye will be evil toward his brother, toward the wife whom he loves, and toward the remnant of his children whom he has remaining, 55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left to him, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy will distress you in all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye will be evil toward the husband that she loves, toward her son, toward her daughter, 57 toward her young one who comes out from between her feet, and toward her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of all things in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy will distress you in your gates. 58 If you will not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful name, YAHWEH your God, 59 then Yahweh will make your plagues and the plagues of your offspring fearful, even great plagues, and of long duration, and severe sicknesses, and of long duration. 60 He will bring on you again all the diseases of Egypt, which you were afraid of; and they will cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law, Yahweh will bring them on you until you are destroyed. 62 You will be left few in number, even though you were as the stars of the sky for multitude, because you didn’t listen to Yahweh your God’s voice. 63 It will happen that as Yahweh rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Yahweh will rejoice over you to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be plucked from the land that you are going in to possess. 64 Yahweh will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth. There you will serve other gods which you have not known, you nor your fathers, even wood and stone. 65 Among these nations you will find no ease, and there will be no rest for the sole of your foot; but Yahweh will give you there a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and pining of soul. 66 Your life will hang in doubt before you. You will be afraid night and day, and will have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “I wish it were evening!” and at evening you will say, “I wish it were morning!” for the fear of your heart which you will fear, and for the sights which your eyes will see. 68 Yahweh will bring you into Egypt again with ships, by the way of which I told to you that you would never see it again. There you will offer yourselves to your enemies for male and female slaves, and nobody will buy you.

Um...I do not really want to bash infants to pieces. Or violate women against their will. Are you sure this is a positive religion?

And yet you believe that you actually know what you're talking about, without having any background in history on the matter.

Ever wonder why it's so easy to dismiss your unbelief as foolishness and ignorance?

If not, you should.

If you were a science professor your teaching method would be to yell at the students to read the textbook.

Well, we could simply tie a rope around your ankles and then dangle you over the edge of the roof.
I can think of several physics experiments with that.

When they get it wrong you yell for them to read it again. And again. And you never show them the correct way to solve the problem.

It's not that difficult to understand what Jesus said.

Joh 14:23 WEBJesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

That is not teaching.

Sounds like you already know everything you want to know.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Jesus was quite clear....

If you keep MY ...

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

So, no equivocation about it!

Pity you find truth uninteresting.

This is still vague. What action do I take to keep Jesus' word? Because I have done everything and God has no revealed himself.

How do I 'keep Jesus' word'?

Well, since you are believing lies already, to base your unbelief on, I'd say that you are destroying yourself.

What lies do you think I believe? I do not believe in gods due to a lack of evidence. Where is the lie?

YHVH gave me evidence that he is real and knowable and that Jesus is the truth.

So should people not believe in God until God gives me evidence? OK. we'll wait.

So, if you don't actually want to know the truth, because you prefer believing lies, it seems to me that your problem is your own beliefs.

What belief? I lack a belief in gods.

Pity you have ignored the context, and the rest of the problem. YHVH warned them that if they ignored his law, he would turn his back on them, and their enemies would wreak havoc on them.

Appeal to Force logical fallacy.

Deu 28:1-68 WEB 1 It shall happen, if you shall listen diligently to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all his commandments which I command you today, that Yahweh your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you, and overtake you, if you listen to Yahweh your God’s voice. 3 You shall be blessed in the city, and you shall be blessed in the field. 4 You shall be blessed in the fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the fruit of your animals, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock. 5 Your basket and your kneading trough shall be blessed. 6 You shall be blessed when you come in, and you shall be blessed when you go out. 7 Yahweh will cause your enemies who rise up against you to be struck before you. They will come out against you one way, and will flee before you seven ways. 8 Yahweh will command the blessing on you in your barns, and in all that you put your hand to. He will bless you in the land which Yahweh your God gives you. 9 Yahweh will establish you for a holy people to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you shall keep the commandments of Yahweh your God, and walk in his ways. 10 All the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by Yahweh’s name, and they will be afraid of you. 11 Yahweh will grant you abundant prosperity in the fruit of your body, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your ground, in the land which Yahweh swore to your fathers to give you. 12 Yahweh will open to you his good treasure in the sky, to give the rain of your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You will lend to many nations, and you will not borrow. 13 Yahweh will make you the head, and not the tail. You will be above only, and you will not be beneath, if you listen to the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you today, to observe and to do, 14 and shall not turn away from any of the words which I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come on you and overtake you. 16 You will be cursed in the city, and you will be cursed in the field. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your body, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your livestock, and the young of your flock will be cursed. 19 You will be cursed when you come in, and you will be cursed when you go out. 20 Yahweh will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you put your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the evil of your doings, by which you have forsaken me. 21 Yahweh will make the pestilence cling to you, until he has consumed you from off the land where you go in to possess it. 22 Yahweh will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with fiery heat, with the sword, with blight, and with mildew. They will pursue you until you perish. 23 Your sky that is over your head will be bronze, and the earth that is under you will be iron. 24 Yahweh will make the rain of your land powder and dust. It will come down on you from the sky, until you are destroyed. 25 Yahweh will cause you to be struck before your enemies. You will go out one way against them, and will flee seven ways before them. You will be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your dead bodies will be food to all birds of the sky, and to the animals of the earth; and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 Yahweh will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with the tumors, with the scurvy, and with the itch, of which you can not be healed. 28 Yahweh will strike you with madness, with blindness, and with astonishment of heart. 29 You will grope at noonday, as the blind gropes in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. You will only be oppressed and robbed always, and there will be no one to save you. 30 You will betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her. You will build a house, and you won’t dwell in it. You will plant a vineyard, and not use its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slain before your eyes, and you will not eat any of it. Your donkey will be violently taken away from before your face, and will not be restored to you. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and you will have no one to save you. 32 Your sons and your daughters will be given to another people. Your eyes will look, and fail with longing for them all day long. There will be no power in your hand. 33 A nation which you don’t know will eat the fruit of your ground and all of your work. You will only be oppressed and crushed always, 34 so that the sights that you see with your eyes will drive you mad. 35 Yahweh will strike you in the knees and in the legs with a sore boil, of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36 Yahweh will bring you, and your king whom you will set over yourselves, to a nation that you have not known, you nor your fathers. There you will serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where Yahweh will lead you away. 38 You will carry much seed out into the field, and will gather little in, for the locust will consume it. 39 You will plant vineyards and dress them, but you will neither drink of the wine, nor harvest, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout all your borders, but you won’t anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives will drop off. 41 You will father sons and daughters, but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity. 42 Locusts will consume all of your trees and the fruit of your ground. 43 The foreigner who is among you will mount up above you higher and higher, and you will come down lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, and you won’t lend to him. He will be the head, and you will be the tail.

This is meaningless until you prove it came from a God.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

45 All these curses will come on you, and will pursue you and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you didn’t listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you. 46 They will be for a sign and for a wonder to you and to your offspring forever. 47 Because you didn’t serve Yahweh your God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things; 48 therefore you will serve your enemies whom Yahweh sends against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in lack of all things. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 Yahweh will bring a nation against you from far, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies: a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce facial expressions, that doesn’t respect the elderly, nor show favor to the young. 51 They will eat the fruit of your livestock and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed. They also won’t leave you grain, new wine, oil, the increase of your livestock, or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish. 52 They will besiege you in all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout all your land. They will besiege you in all your gates throughout all your land which Yahweh your God has given you. 53 You will eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters, whom Yahweh your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies will distress you. 54 The man who is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye will be evil toward his brother, toward the wife whom he loves, and toward the remnant of his children whom he has remaining, 55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left to him, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy will distress you in all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye will be evil toward the husband that she loves, toward her son, toward her daughter, 57 toward her young one who comes out from between her feet, and toward her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of all things in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy will distress you in your gates. 58 If you will not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful name, YAHWEH your God, 59 then Yahweh will make your plagues and the plagues of your offspring fearful, even great plagues, and of long duration, and severe sicknesses, and of long duration. 60 He will bring on you again all the diseases of Egypt, which you were afraid of; and they will cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law, Yahweh will bring them on you until you are destroyed. 62 You will be left few in number, even though you were as the stars of the sky for multitude, because you didn’t listen to Yahweh your God’s voice. 63 It will happen that as Yahweh rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Yahweh will rejoice over you to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be plucked from the land that you are going in to possess. 64 Yahweh will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth. There you will serve other gods which you have not known, you nor your fathers, even wood and stone. 65 Among these nations you will find no ease, and there will be no rest for the sole of your foot; but Yahweh will give you there a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and pining of soul. 66 Your life will hang in doubt before you. You will be afraid night and day, and will have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “I wish it were evening!” and at evening you will say, “I wish it were morning!” for the fear of your heart which you will fear, and for the sights which your eyes will see. 68 Yahweh will bring you into Egypt again with ships, by the way of which I told to you that you would never see it again. There you will offer yourselves to your enemies for male and female slaves, and nobody will buy you.

Meaningless until you prove this came from a God. You are basically saying, "I cannot prove this is from a god but you better read it and believe it is from a god!"

That's just not rational.

And yet you believe that you actually know what you're talking about, without having any background in history on the matter.

Okie dokie

Ever wonder why it's so easy to dismiss your unbelief as foolishness and ignorance?

Not really. You can dismiss my unbelief if you like. Go nuts man!

Well, we could simply tie a rope around your ankles and then dangle you over the edge of the roof.
I can think of several physics experiments with that.

Can you think of any Christian experiments like this? Can you details out what we do as you did for physics?

Or do you think we need experiments to prove physics but The Bible should be believed without experiments?

Why the two standards?

It's not that difficult to understand what Jesus said.

Joh 14:23 WEBJesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

I do not understand what 'keep my word' means. Can you explain?

Sounds like you already know everything you want to know.

Gosh no! I want to learn a new language, I am reading a book on Modern Monetary Theory to learn more about modern economics, I watch TedTalks to learn new things from many sources.

The difference is they can all prove what they are talking about is real where you cannot.

Your lack of evidence is no my inability to learn.

 

[SteveB]

This is still vague. What action do I take to keep Jesus' word? Because I have done everything and God has no revealed himself.

How do I 'keep Jesus' word'?

Do you know how to read?
Read the new testament, start with the gospel of John.

Look for items that Jesus said you need to engage in.

What lies do you think I believe?

You were pretty clear that you believe that you believe--

So anyone who does not accept Jesus based on no evidence is a believer of lies?

I do not believe in gods due to a lack of evidence. Where is the lie?

Yet you continue to use false gods, and false beliefs to justify your ignorance of YHVH.
Which makes it pretty clear that you don't actually want to know the truth.

THAT is the lie you believe.

So should people not believe in God until God gives me evidence? OK. we'll wait.

YHVH says that he will give us a heart to know him. He further stated that he will be found by you when you seek him with a whole heart.

What belief? I lack a belief in gods.

You've repeatedly made it clear that you don't believe in gods.
I have further, repeatedly, stated that I'm not talking about gods.
I'm talking about YHVH.
He is not a god. He is the only True and Living God.
You however continue to use those gods you don't believe in to justify your ongoing refusal to engage YHVH on his terms.
Which leads me to the question of why you would continue to use false beliefs to promote your ongoing ignorance.

Do you actually not want to know the truth? Do you think that by deflecting, you will not be held culpable?

Appeal to Force logical fallacy.

You continue to use the same argument to dismiss gravity's effects too.
So it's become quite clear that you don't actually care about the truth, and only seek an argument to escape culpability.

This is meaningless until you prove it came from a God.

It didn't come from A god.
It came from YHVH.