Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Contentless Vagary is a great band name. Just sayin'.
"The" Cosmological Argument
- Thread starter Torin
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Whatsisface
Well-known member
If I start a band, that's the name.
Regarding the second point, can you point me to two versions of the cosmological argument which do not rely on very similar claims, whether they are explicit or implicit? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm not saying I've read them all and know them to be very similar; I haven't. I'm just curious.)
Tiburon
Well-known member
All those who say they have found otherwise introduce some fudge or baseless assumption to arrive at that.
If I have a lack of experience how is that my fault.
According to you I have done what was required.
I have knocked on the door and been left standing on the stoop.
Furion
Well-known member
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
"You didn't knock right."
Whatsisface
Well-known member
I doubt you would.I'm sorry I made you feel bad.
Furion
Well-known member
Knock knock...
Kalam vs Thomistic vs Leibnizian cosmological arguments. There are also inductive cosmological arguments like Swinburne's.
I'll try to look those over, thanks.
SteveB
Well-known member
Such as?
You've been on this forum for a long time now.
You've had plenty of time and opportunity to engage YHVH for yourself. Yet you obviously haven't done so.
Really? And what have I said that you have done?
Curious.....
Knocked on the door....
?.....
Jesus said,
Ask and you shall receive.
Seek and you will find.
Knock and the door will be open.
If the door you knocked on wasn't opened, then my question would become....
Which door did you knock on?
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
I think the time is long, long past for you to stop equivocating and just tell us, specifically, how to engage God so that he will be revealed.
So - what are the specific steps you took to engage God? If you are vague and say 'do what the Bible says' then we know you have no idea how to engage God - you just seem to like shouting 'get off yer duff!' and 'do what Jesus says!' and insulting atheists. Which is fine I guess if that is fun for you. But it does not make it seem like you are in touch with a god.
Anyhoo, so, step one is to engage God is....?
Kalam, Thomistic, and Leibnizian are the three categories that deductive CAs fall into according to WLC's history of the CA.
Each depends on a principle:
Kalam: the principle of indetermination
Thomistic: the principle of causality
Leibnizian: the principle of sufficient reason
Each also takes a different stance involving causal regresses:
Kalam: infinite temporal regresses are impossible
Thomistic: infinite vertical (or "simultaneous") causal regresses are impossible
Leibnizian: no such stipulation about infinite regresses
I'm basing this on WLC's history of the cosmological argument. I admit I am unclear on how some aspects of the classification work, but hopefully it provides a sense of the differences here.
SteveB
Well-known member
I have.
For the past 9 years.
Read the bible and do what Jesus said.
I've repeatedly posted the quote from which this statement is derived.
Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.
So....
You tell me.
What part of this passage are you not understanding?
I've already explained it.... several hundred, if not a couple thousand times before.
Do you want me to repeat it again?
It's not that difficult to read the bible.
What part of do what Jesus said do you think Jesus didn't mean?
Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.
What does Jesus say will be the result of doing what he said?
Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.
What does Jesus say will be the result of doing what he says?
Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.
you tell me.
What does Jesus say will be the result of doing what he says?
Whatsisface
Well-known member
SteveB
Well-known member
I think that you do what I did.
Inquire to God himself.
Richard Wurmbrand did it, and he was a dyed-in-the-wool atheist.
“God, I know surely that You do not exist. But if perchance You exist, which I contest, it is not my duty to believe in You; it is Your duty to reveal Yourself to me.”
looks pretty simple to me.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
OK so the steps to find God are:
1) Keep the Ten Commandments
2) Love God
3) Love Jesus
I tried that and nothing happened. I think you might be missing a step.
Or maybe God knows that I could never really love a being that drowned every baby on Earth for the sins of their parents, refuses to cure cancer and covid while people suffer, and condemned his own son to torture.
I can try to fake it - but its really hard to love a psychopath. Maybe God knows that and so he refuses to come to me because he feels unloved.
Ah well - we tried. Thanks for listing the steps as I asked Steve.
Whatsisface
Well-known member
But then you must think to a degree at least that He exists. I don't, so whenever I try it, I get nothing.
Was he a dyed in the wool atheist? Atheist maybe but dyed in the wool? As an atheist I can't even ask because I really don't think God is there. He could ask because he emotionally open to the idea as shown by the following.
Here is a quote from an article about his life …
Every atheist I know doesn't have a yearning inside them for a higher power. It sounds like he was emotionally open to the ideas of God all the time. Reading his conversion story, it's all emotion and no evidence just like adherents of other religions.
Is that what it was for you? You're never specific so it's hard to know.
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SteveB
Well-known member
Where does Jesus say keep the 10 commandments?
Well, according to Romans 8:3-9
Rom 8:3-9 WEB 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
So, please try reading what Jesus said more carefully.
What does Jesus say?
Based on the natural description of love, that's no surprise.
God's Love isn't the same as man's ideas of love.
Deu 5:10 WEB and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Joh 14:15 WEB If you love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:9-10 WEB 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.
Joh 13:34-35 WEB 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Now.... try this again...
What does Jesus say about keeping his commands?
What is his commandment?
Love isn't something that is able to be faked.
Ironically, you blew right over them.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”
All kinds of stuff - what are the steps to find God?
I just personally do not love anyone who drowns babies and watches people die slowly of cancer.
Ah - so God's idea of love is not our idea of 'extreme fondness'. It seems closer to the human concept of psychopathy. So whenever The Bible says 'God's love' what they are really saying is 'God's psychopathy'
That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
I have no idea. Do you know? Can you teach me please?
I have no idea. Do you know? Can you teach me please?