Abortion Up Until Birth Act Fails In Senate.

Michael R2 said:
You've hit on the point that is most contentious when it comes to Roe v Wade. Fetal viability is generally considered to be about 24 weeks, but with modern NICUs and procedures it can be lowered to approximately 21 weeks (where the facilities are available). The bill did not, and should not have, addressed that issue. It is a medical decision with fuzzy boundaries.
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Before or after means fetal viability is not an issue at all
 
Harry Leggs said:
Why don't you simply admit, you believe, countries or other humans have no moral responsibility to the unborn, living and human, to a say 8-month-old fetus in the womb.
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Not quite. Moral responsibility is a personal opinion, and I would say 20 weeks rather than 8 months, except in exceptional circumstances. There is a moral obligation to the mother however. If, for example, she wanted treatment for a foetal deformity, she should get it. No one should be forced to have an abortion. No one should be forced not to. That is what choice is.
 
Harry Leggs said:
Also your ignoring the no moral responsibility to the unborn, living and human, is telling.
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Moral opinions are personal. You have forgotten to tell me the alleged purpose of these alleged experiments, and also whether the abortions were commissioned in order to provide the material. How do you expect anyone to make a moral judgement without facts?
 
Temujin said:
Sounds entirely reasonable. But then I am biased having lived in a country with a similarly sane abortion provision for the last fifty years. Abortion is not even a fringe issue here now.
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Women killing their offspring....how "sane".....
 
Temujin said:
Moral opinions are personal.
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Cowardly response. It is safe to assume you adhere to no moral responsibility to the unborn, living and human. Nor do you believe the state is obligated. Although you do believe the state is obligated to protect your rights. You did write the abortion law was entirely reasonable so it is no stretch to suppose you also view the fetal/rat experiment eltirely reasonable since you have provided no reason to suppose otherwise. Just lame dodges.
Temujin said:
You have forgotten to tell me the alleged purpose of these alleged experiments,
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Where do you get the crazy idea i am obligated to look things up for you when you can do them yourself? It is all a dodge anyway. Game playing.
Temujin said:
and also whether the abortions were commissioned in order to provide the material. How do you expect anyone to make a moral judgement without facts?
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By the results. For the most part, everything else is incidental.
 
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Harry Leggs said:
Cowardly response. It is safe to assume you adhere to no moral responsibility to the unborn, living and human. Nor do you believe the state is not obligated. Although you do believe the state is obligated to protect your rights.
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I have stated my position several times here. To be clear I do not consider the unborn to have any rights at all, except for any consideration the woman bearing them chooses to give. I think the idea of according the unborn the same rights as the born to be crazy and morally bankrupt.

Where do you get the crazy idea i am obligated to look things up for you when you can do them yourself? It is all a dodge anyway. Game playing.
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Where do you get the crazy idea that I should morally condemn something I know nothing about on the say so of someone whose judgment I don't trust?
By the results.
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If the result is a cure for cancer or Parkinsonism or similar condition, then I'm all for it.
 
Temujin said:
I have stated my position several times here. To be clear I do not consider the unborn to have any rights at all,
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And you have rights. Also ignore the 8 month fetus is living and human just like you. So what else is needed and why? You do know the mentality you are presenting here is no different than slavers who enslaved, beat and raped their slaves. They were living and human but not human enough to enjoy any rights what so ever.
Temujin said:
except for any consideration the woman bearing them chooses to give. I think the idea of according the unborn the same rights as the born to be crazy and morally bankrupt.
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Thank you. And by the same metric slaves enjoying the same rights as the masters is also morally bankrupt according to your metric.
Temujin said:
Where do you get the crazy idea that I should morally condemn something I know nothing about on the say so of someone whose judgment I don't trust?
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I suppose the facts and results.
Temujin said:
If the result is a cure for cancer or Parkinsonism or similar condition, then I'm all for it.
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End justifies the means.
 
Temujin said:
All four of them, lol! No political party has a manifesto to change the abortion law. No candidate mentions it in hustings. It never comes up on phone in programmes or street interviews. It is a non-issue. There has been no change in the law in fifty years. Even the bishops in the House of Lords are content.
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Just pointing out to everyone that bills have been raised recently in both USA and UK to allow abortion up to birth, despite you claiming its not an issue in the UK. You also seem to claim.its because the law hasnt changed in the UK for ages seemingly oblivious to the same in the UK. You may have a point that the law may soon change in the US.
 
Harry Leggs said:
And you have rights. Also ignore the 8 month fetus is living and human just like you. So what else is needed and why? You do know the mentality you are presenting here is no different than slavers who enslaved, beat and raped their slaves. They were living and human but not human enough to enjoy any rights what so ever.
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Don't be ridiculous. Firstly, I specifically said 20 weeks, not 8 months. Perhaps you struggle with the maths. I fully acknowledge that the 19 week foetus is living and human like me, but it is not a person like me because it is insufficiently developed to be considered a person like me. All the stuff about slaves is just hyperbolic bollocks.

Thank you. And by the same metric slaves enjoying the same rights as the masters is also morally bankrupt according to your metric.
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On the contrary. Any human being surviving outside the uterus is a person, and has all the rights os any other person, in my view. Slavery has bugger all to do with abortion. It is just a strawman.

I suppose the facts and results.
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Which you haven't bothered to provide.

End justifies the means.
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If you say so. It depends on what the end is and what the means are. As you are incapable of providing either, it is pointless to speculate.
 
BMS said:
Just pointing out to everyone that bills have been raised recently in both USA and UK to allow abortion up to birth, despite you claiming its not an issue in the UK. You also seem to claim.its because the law hasnt changed in the UK for ages seemingly oblivious to the same in the UK. You may have a point that the law may soon change in the US.
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Thank you for your incoherent and vacuous response, to which no further comment is necessary.
 
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