Anti-Gospel Wolves Accursed by Paul

[fltom]

Acts:16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Seems as if the Father granted Lydia the ability to come to Christ Jesus.

This is the granting of John 6:65

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

BTW how is unregenerate Lydia is a worshipper of God

Calvinist total inability would have you to believe she would be a hater of God and unable to respond positively to God in any manner

 

[fltom]

the irony is the OP is under the yoke of the law and legalism. I'm 100% about repentance, faith, grace and obedience to Christ, not the law. He fulfilled it for me and I'm not under the yoke/tutor/schoolmaster. But they would have you under the bondage of a man and his teachings, not the teachings of Jesus. Oh the irony, the hypocrisy, the real wolf that has become the accuser of the brethren.

Beyond all that I know beyond all doubt the Lord is 100% with me as great men of God who are scholars, pastors and theologians, have supported my journey with me and to walk alongside me in full support.

hope this helps !!!

Great! Take comfort in that

 

[fltom]

calvin is their god not Jesus.

So what happens to sola scriptura?

 

[CrowCross]

BTW how is unregenerate Lydia is a worshipper of God

Why would she not be able to?

 

[fltom]

Why would she not be able to?

Your doctrine of total inability maintains she should have been a hater of God

and unable to understand spiritual truth

I already noted that

 

[Ladodgers6]

Here's more glorious Scripture:

For [Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
—Ephesians 2:14-16

Only Christ can accomplish this through His Sacrifice and Suffering to ransom (Purchase or Pay) with His Blood he propitiates God's Wrath and Judgement in our place!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

 

[Ladodgers6]

Originally Published in the March/April 1996 edition of Modern Reformation Magazine, “Saved From God By God.”​

No Ordinary Death: Jesus Christ, The Propitiation For Our Sins

by Kim Riddlebarger
(Part One)​

There is no way this side of eternity we will ever be able to fully understand the words of our Lord recorded in Matthew 27:46: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” As the mob mocked him, and while the thief who was crucified next to him hurled insults at him, our Lord’s thoughts turned not to his own physical anguish or the ridicule he faced from onlookers. His mind was on something far different from that of most dying men–his dying lament was the anguish he felt at being estranged from his heavenly Father, whose wrath he bore as he faced an excruciating death by crucifixion. The Father he had known from all eternity had now turned his back on his only begotten son. Just moments after uttering these awesome words, he took his final breath. The significance of his death was only then slowly being grasped by those who watched him give up his spirit. For at the very moment when his heart ceased beating the afternoon sky was suddenly darkened and terra firm itself shuddered beneath his cross. This was no ordinary death.

There are other signs which marked the time of his death as well. The great curtain in the Jerusalem temple–separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place–was dramatically torn in two all the way from top to bottom. It was as though God Himself was removing his blessing from what had been his earthly temple. The sacrifices offered in that temple were no longer accepted by God, and any further shedding of the blood of bulls and goats was now an offense to God and only served to further increase the guilt of those who offered them. And when it was finally and mercifully over, one soldier responsible for seeing to it that the sentence of death was carried out, and now terribly frightened because of the cosmic upheaval that accompanied this man’s dying, is reported to have exclaimed, “Surely, this man was the Son of God” (Mt 27:54). For it was now clear to all that this was not just another common criminal who had died before their eyes. Indeed, this bloody, disfigured, and humiliated man, the one identified by the crude sign that adorned his cross as the “King of the Jews,” was none other than the Son of God. Without guilt before God or man, and a willing victim despite his complete and total innocence, this man died under the wrath of his Father in order to save those who were even then taking perverse delight in his death. This was no ordinary death.

Surely we will never fully understand everything that happened when Jesus Christ died on a Roman gibbet for the sins of the world. But Scripture does tell us quite a bit about what Christ’s death accomplished, and how his death benefits us today, nearly 2,000 years later. While there are several striking explanations offered throughout the New Testament as to the meaning of Christ’s death by crucifixion, one term strikes me as capturing the meaning behind our Lord’s lament perhaps better than any other: Christ’s death is said to be a “propitiation for our sins.” Used only four times in the New Testament (twice by John: 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10; once by Paul: Romans 3:25; and once by the author of Hebrews: 9:5), the term has a rich Old Testament background, and we will be unable to understand why this term is so significant when used of Christ’s death apart from such a context.

There is one theme, however, no doubt more than any other, which underlies the concept of propitiation in both the Old and New Testaments and that is the notion of God's wrath. “In the Old Testament, more than twenty words are used of the wrath of God (in addition to a number of others which are used in reference only of human anger). The total number of references to God's wrath exceeds 580, so that it cannot be said to be an occasional topic.”1 While the pagans described their “gods” as possessing a capricious and almost irrational anger, which they believed was often turned loose against them without perceptible rhyme or reason, “the Hebrews were not in doubt,” about why their God was angry with them. “They knew that one thing and one thing only aroused God’s anger, and that was sin.” Thus, we can never understand why the biblical writers speak of Christ’s death as a propitiation if we do not see the fundamental fact that God is Holy, and that he must punish all sin. Take for example God’s reaction to idolatry recorded in Exodus 32:8-10: “They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel.” God’s reaction is swift and quite clear: “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them.”

One of the most sobering declarations of God's holy anger is found in Isaiah 30:27:

See, the Name of the Lord comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire. His breath is like a rushing torrent, rising up to the neck. He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction; he places in the jaws of the peoples a bit that leads them astray. And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel. The Lord will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

God’s righteous anger against sin is also seen by his response to those who commit murder and adultery: “I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger” (Ez. 16:38). Even what we might impudently consider small and insignificant sins nevertheless provoke the same reaction from the Holy God. “Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless” (Ex 22:22-24). Indeed, lies and greed meet with a similar response, as Jeremiah laments, “I am full of the wrath of the Lord, and I cannot hold it in” (Jer 6:11). God is Holy and he will punish all sin with an eternal and righteous vengeance.

There is an unfortunate tendency on the part of some to argue that it is the “mean” god of the Old Testament who acts in such wrath, while the God of the New Testament is loving and would never express such righteous anger toward his creatures. While not spoken of as frequently as in the Old Testament, God’s anger toward sin and evildoers is clearly spoken of in a number of ways in the New Testament. In John’s Gospel, for example, we read that God’s wrath abides on everyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:36). Jesus himself spoke of Hell and eternal punishment quite frequently (see Mt 5:22, 18:8, Mk 9:48; Lk 12:5). The Apostle Paul argues that “God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men” (Rom 1:18) and that “God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient” (Eph 5:6). In Revelation, John speaks of “God’s fury, which has been poured into the cup of his wrath” (Rev. 14:10, cf. 16:19), and John even goes so far to speak of Christ’s coming in judgment as “the wrath of the lamb” (Rev. 6:16). We cannot drive a wedge between God’s anger in the Old and New Testaments.

Thus, the question necessarily arises as to how any will enter heaven since God’s righteous anger burns against all those who commit sin, and if the biblical record is clear about anything, it is that everyone living has sinned and is therefore under the just condemnation of God. How will anyone be admitted into heaven and on what grounds? If God cannot overlook sin, then he must punish it. But how can he punish sinners without annihilating them? We will never understand the cross of Christ if we first do not contemplate God’s anger toward all sin and those who commit it. And so it is against this background that we must endeavor to understand the term “propitiation.”

Know what you believe and why you believe it!​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Originally Published in the March/April 1996 edition of Modern Reformation Magazine, “Saved From God By God.”

No Ordinary Death: Jesus Christ, The Propitiation For Our Sins

by Kim Riddlebarger
(Part Two)​

When those who were translating the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek looked for a word to describe God’s forgiveness, in reference to his anger, they choose the term hilsokomai in a number of instances. The idea in view by using that specific term is certainly a turning aside of anger through the offering of a sacrifice (cf. Ex 32:14, Ps 78:38, and Lam 3:42). But the term’s full meaning is seen most clearly in the New Testament when it is applied to the cross of Christ. When John speaks of the death of Christ as a “propitiation [hilasmos] for our sins” (1 Jn 2:2; 4:10), the meaning is clear. Christ’s death on the cross turns aside God’s wrath that otherwise would be directed toward us in the judgment because of our sins. Christ accomplishes this for us through his offering up of himself as the sacrifice on whom God has poured out his anger. Christ shed his blood then, in part, to appease the Holy God's anger toward our sins.4 The same idea is in view in Romans 3:25. Paul says that “God presented his Son as a propitiation [hilasterion],” to demonstrate his justice–he will indeed forgive sin only because he punishes it in Christ–and so that he can justify those who have faith in his Son. Since God cannot simply overlook sin but must punish it, Christ must stand in the sinner’s stead. The guilt of the sinner’s sin has been dealt with in that Christ’s shed blood turns aside the wrath of God toward the sinner, thereby removing that guilt from him or her. In this sense, the concept of propitiation is foundational to understanding not only the substitutionary aspect of the atonement, but also forensic justification as well. The reason that sinners can be justified at all is that the guilt for their own sins has been imputed to Christ, so that Christ in turn can turn aside God’s wrath toward sinners by being punished for the sinner in the sinner’s place (Phil 3:9). Perhaps James Denny put it best when he said, “the simplest word of faith is the deepest word of theology: Christ died for our sins.”

The prissiness of Protestant Liberalism is clearly evident in the notion that Christianity is a religion of morality and ethics, rather than a religion of rescue from real personal guilt and the penalty due us from the Holy God, whose “eyes are too pure to look on evil; [who] cannot tolerate wrong” (Hab 1:13). Protestant liberals have always had a problem with the vivid biblical language of personal guilt before a Holy God and the necessity of shedding the blood of the Son of God if there was to be any real remission of sin. One thinks of the rather pitiful efforts of C. H. Dodd to redefine and reduce God’s wrath to mere reciprocity–our bad actions inevitably produce bad consequences for us. According to Dodd, anger is a human trait, so “how can God, who is love, be angry in the way in which men understand anger?” So Dodd redefines wrath according to his own theologically liberal sensitivities. The God of the Bible is too barbaric for those who don’t believe that God is holy and will, therefore, necessarily punish eternally all who violate his law as a matter of justice. I have always shuddered at the story recounted by one of my colleagues about a liberally inclined fellow seminarian who once asked him, “You’re not one of those guys who’s into the 'blood' and all that stuff, are you?” Protestant liberalism has always struggled to fashion a god who serves as a mascot for whatever political or moral cause that happens to be in vogue that week. Redemption by the blood of Christ, and the turning aside of God's righteous anger, is always a problem for those who don’t take sin and guilt seriously.

The liberals are not the only branch of the broader Protestant tradition, however, who have had serious problems with the wrath of God and the language of propitiation. John Miley (1813-1895), noted American Methodist theologian, was quite certain that a consistent Arminian theology–one based squarely on the first principle of the absolute freedom of the human will–demanded that “an atonement of satisfaction” be rejected in favor of the so-called governmental theory of the atonement. Declares Miley, “The Wesleyan soteriology, taken as a whole, excludes the satisfaction theory, and requires the governmental as the only theory consistent with itself.” According to Miley, this means that “the atonement is only provisory in character; that it renders men savable, but does not necessarily save them . . . and the consequence is the conditionality of salvation.” A conditionality, Miley notes, which must be “in accord with the synergism of the truest Arminianism.”6 Thus the death of Christ doesn't actually accomplish anything, according to Miley, other than showing God to be a just governor of his universe and that by offering up his Son on the cross he shows his love for a lost world. But in Miley’s scheme, the death of Christ merely makes it possible for God to remit sin on the condition of faith, and does not actually turn aside God’s wrath toward sinners. The cross then, supposedly enables God to find some other less brutal way to save sinners, such as enabling God to now forgive sin through faith. But the nagging question remains: “If Christ did not need to die to satisfy God's wrath toward sinners, then why did God cause his Son to suffer such unspeakable torment, if he really didn't need to?” The governmental atonement of consistent Wesleyan Arminianism turns the cross of Christ into the torture of the Son by God the Father for no good reason. Such a notion is an offense to the holiness of God and the suffering of Christ.

The unfortunate fact that many of our evangelical contemporaries find the whole idea of God pouring out his wrath on his Son as repulsive, demonstrating both the influence of Protestant liberalism and Wesleyan Arminianism, is seen in the fact that several of our major English translations of the Bible have abandoned the term propitiation for the weaker term expiation (RSV, NEB) or the more nebulous “sacrifice of atonement” (NIV, NRSV).7 As Leon Morris has noted, there is indeed a very important theological point in view here. “Propitiation means the turning away of anger; expiation is rather making amends for a wrong. Propitiation is a personal word; one propitiates a person. Expiation is an impersonal word; one expiates a sin or crime.” The term “sacrifice of atonement” tries perhaps to allow for both meanings, but is sufficiently vague to lose both meanings altogether. Fuzzy theological language, it seems, helps avoid the rather sticky problem of deciding the correct rendering in the face of differing opinions.

Evangelicalism has no doubt become more preoccupied with morality and ethics, and increasingly embarrassed by its biblical and historic Protestant roots. There is also no doubt that in more and more circles, synergism in regard to sin and grace is now the rule and not the exception. We should not be surprised then that certain evangelicals would argue that God is not vengeful upon sin (cf. Clark Pinnock’s book A Wideness in God’s Mercy), or that we can no longer speak of our sins as the reason Christ suffered upon the cross since that would be psychological battering (cf. Fuller Seminary Professor Ray Anderson’s The Gospel According to Judas). It is hard to imagine being an evangelical without an evangel, but that is where Dodd, Miley, Pinnock, and Anderson would lead us if they could. As for me and my house, we will not follow. If we as Christians are to be faithful to the biblical account, we must see that the death of Jesus Christ was no ordinary death. For the biblical writers are crystal clear about both God’s wrath on sin and his grace in offering up his own Son to satisfy his own righteous anger for sins that we have committed. Christianity is not a religion of ethics, morality, or politics. Its central message is the proclamation of the death of God’s Son, under God's curse, dying in unspeakable anguish to turn aside God’s holy hatred of sin, so that all who trust in him and in him alone can be saved from God’s wrath and be assured of God’s favor toward them. If we lose that message we have lost Christianity itself.

Know what you believe and why you believe it! Through Faith Alone because of Christ Alone, Praise and Glory to God Alone!





​

 

[fltom]

Originally Published in the March/April 1996 edition of Modern Reformation Magazine, “Saved From God By God.”

No Ordinary Death: Jesus Christ, The Propitiation For Our Sins

by Kim Riddlebarger​

......................................................

​

John Miley (1813-1895), noted American Methodist theologian, was quite certain that a consistent Arminian theology–one based squarely on the first principle of the absolute freedom of the human will–demanded that “an atonement of satisfaction” be rejected in favor of the so-called governmental theory of the atonement. Declares Miley, “The Wesleyan soteriology, taken as a whole, excludes the satisfaction theory, and requires the governmental as the only theory consistent with itself.” According to Miley, this means that “the atonement is only provisory in character; that it renders men savable, but does not necessarily save them . . . and the consequence is the conditionality of salvation.” A conditionality, Miley notes, which must be “in accord with the synergism of the truest Arminianism.”6 Thus the death of Christ doesn't actually accomplish anything, according to Miley, other than showing God to be a just governor of his universe and that by offering up his Son on the cross he shows his love for a lost world. But in Miley’s scheme, the death of Christ merely makes it possible for God to remit sin on the condition of faith, and does not actually turn aside God’s wrath toward sinners. The cross then, supposedly enables God to find some other less brutal way to save sinners, such as enabling God to now forgive sin through faith. But the nagging question remains: “If Christ did not need to die to satisfy God's wrath toward sinners, then why did God cause his Son to suffer such unspeakable torment, if he really didn't need to?” The governmental atonement of consistent Wesleyan Arminianism turns the cross of Christ into the torture of the Son by God the Father for no good reason. Such a notion is an offense to the holiness of God and the suffering of Christ.​

Making it possible that any can be saved is for no good reason?

What an insane comment.

The above writer clearly has no understanding of what he writes about.

 

[Dizerner]

Making it possible that any can be saved is for no good reason?

What an insane comment.

The above writer clearly has no understanding of what he writes about.

Do you believe the Law brings the wrath of God (Rom. 4:15)?

Do you believe Christ came to fulfill the Law (Mat. 5:17)?

If you change the death of Jesus to be unrelated to the Law of God, you formulate an economy of justice separated from an absolute holy standard.

God no longer needs the Blood of Jesus to atone or forgive anything, it is just decoration.

Jesus didn't "set aside" the Law by violating it, but by fulfilling it.

Nowhere in all the Bible is the Law of God circumvented, degraded, disregarded, unfulfilled, not honored, bypassed or ignored.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Do you believe the Law brings the wrath of God (Rom. 4:15)?

Do you believe Christ came to fulfill the Law (Mat. 5:17)?

If you change the death of Jesus to be unrelated to the Law of God, you formulate an economy of justice separated from an absolute holy standard.

God no longer needs the Blood of Jesus to atone or forgive anything, it is just decoration.

Jesus didn't "set aside" the Law by violating it, but by fulfilling it.

Nowhere in all the Bible is the Law of God circumvented, degraded, disregarded, unfulfilled, not honored, bypassed or ignored.

Hey they will deny wrath against the Son, because they human reasoning, not biblical discernment, find it to be cosmic child abuse. They believe that God is ONLY Love, and pit God's attributes against one another, which is a caricature, and a misrepresentation of PSA. They accuse us of pitting the Father against the Son and vice versa. But this couldn't be further from the truth. God Planned the Redemption of his people through a Covenant of Redemption with the members of Trinity in Eternity. And sends His Son through a Covenant of Grace a mutual agreement between them to redeem God's people from their sins! And the only way to do this is to pay the ransom owed to sin, which is Justice, condemnation, death, destruction, and God's wrath against sin. They cannot grasp this because they do not understand what condition or plight fallen man is before a Holy God and Judge! For God to just excuse the punishment owed due to sin, would make God unjust.

So the crucial question here to ask. Is how can God justify ungodly and still be just? As Paul is preaching Law full fire and brimstone in Romans chapters 1-3. And nails shut any hope for those under the curse of the Law. Paul says it's the doers of the Law that will be justified. Well how can sinners who cannot be Justified through the Law (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4) be justified???? Paul provides the ONLY solution which is found in Romans 3:21-25.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

I just love these passages especially for a wreck like me! Paul says NOW the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God has been manifested APART from the Law. The RIGHTEOUSNESS of God through Faith in Jesus Christ for all believe. Here Paul preaches the Gospel, that through Faith we receive the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ Jesus! This is the positive righteousness; the perfect righteousness without blemish to enter heaven. And as far as our condemn state as fallen sinners, God provides a Substitute for us, the Passover Lamb, who God Himself put forward as a propitiation by His BLOOD, to be receive by Faith! This means that Christ by His suffering in our place (Propitiation) turns God's Justice & fury from us to Himself, because our sins are placed on Him, and He becomes our curse and hung on a tree. By His wounds our healed, by His punishment and suffering we have peace with God. Christ as the "One Mediator" reconciles us to God, who longer is a Judge, but a Loving Father. The enmity and hostility are destroyed forever!


For [Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
—Ephesians 2:14-16

But they will not agree with this friend, because they have a weak or non-existence Law and Holy God. Which then affects their so-called gospel, that is another set of Laws to keep to earn redemption.

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

 

[Dizerner]

And the only way to do this is to pay the ransom owed to sin, which is Justice, condemnation, death, destruction, and God's wrath against sin.

We are pretty much on the same page here, I think you just misspoke, but the ransom would be owed because of sin, not "to" sin.

For God to just excuse the punishment owed due to sin, would make God unjust.

This is the important point—it would violate God's established justice.

So the crucial question here to ask. Is how can God justify ungodly and still be just? As Paul is preaching Law full fire and brimstone in Romans chapters 1-3. And nails shut any hope for those under the curse of the Law. Paul says it's the doers of the Law that will be justified. Well how can sinners who cannot be Justified through the Law (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4) be justified???? Paul provides the ONLY solution which is found in Romans 3:21-25.

Yes, the sinner must be punished, and God placed us inside of Christ to be punished for us. That is why we died with Christ.

This means that Christ by His suffering in our place (Propitiation) turns God's Justice & fury from us to Himself, because our sins are placed on Him, and He becomes our curse and hung on a tree. By His wounds our healed, by His punishment and suffering we have peace with God. Christ as the "One Mediator" reconciles us to God, who [no] longer is a Judge, but a Loving Father. The enmity and hostility are destroyed forever!

Yes, that is a good synopsis of God's salvific economy.

But they will not agree with this friend, because they have a weak or non-existence Law and Holy God. Which then affects their so-called gospel, that is another set of Laws to keep to earn redemption.

It seems to me they think Jesus threw out the Law instead of fulfilling it.

That makes a very big difference, because we are "dead to the Law" but Paul says that it was "through the Law."

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. (Gal. 2:19 ESV)

Notice that it was "through the Law" and that is the essential center truth all the others are anchored on—the Law is not bypassed.

 

[fltom]

Do you believe the Law brings the wrath of God (Rom. 4:15)?

Yes

Do you believe Christ came to fulfill the Law (Mat. 5:17)?

Yes

If you change the death of Jesus to be unrelated to the Law of God, you formulate an economy of justice separated from an absolute holy standard.

Have done no such thing

I think it may have been you that posted concerning concerning the government theory of atonement and that theory of atonement is related to the law of God

So an atonement theory need not be PSA to be related to the law of God

God no longer needs the Blood of Jesus to atone or forgive anything, it is just decoration.

No one has ever stated any such thing

That idea is a distortion and does not represent anything I stated or believe

Jesus didn't "set aside" the Law by violating it, but by fulfilling it.

Nowhere in all the Bible is the Law of God circumvented, degraded, disregarded, unfulfilled, not honored, bypassed or ignored.

The law applies to the sinner if the penalty of the law cannot be set aside i.e. forgiven than all must die and spend eternity apart from God

If you are going to hold to your comments above PSA will not saved you as it is but a theory on how punishment might be set aside

BTW the bible teaches forgiveness. pardon, the non imputation of sin

Is. 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to Yahweh,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
2Chr. 7:14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their evil ways, then I will listen from heaven, I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land.
Ezek. 18:21 ¶ “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has done and keeps all My statutes and does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Ezek. 18:22 “All his transgressions which he has done will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has done, he will live.
Ezek. 18:23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares Lord Yahweh, “is it not that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek. 33:14 “But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and does justice and righteousness,
Ezek. 33:15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Ezek. 33:16 “None of his sins that he has done will be remembered against him. He has done justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.
Mic. 7:18 Who is a God like You, who forgives iniquity
And passes over the transgression of the remnant of His inheritance?
He does not hold fast to His anger forever
Because He delights in lovingkindness.
Neh. 9:17 “They refused to listen,
And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You did among them;
So they became stiff-necked and gave themselves a chief to return to their slavery in Egypt.
But You are a God of lavish forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness;
And You did not forsake them.
Psa. 86:5 For You, Lord, are good, and by nature forgiving,
And abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon You.
Jer. 31:34 “And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jer. 33:8 ‘And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
Jer. 36:3 “Perhaps the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I devise to bring on them, in order that every man will turn from his evil way; then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.”
Jer. 50:20 ‘In those days and at that time,’ declares Yahweh, ‘search will be made for the iniquity of Israel, but there will be none; and for the sins of Judah, but they will not be found; for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.’

 

[David1701]

do you stand with calvin when he says the Father killed the Son and double predestination where he created men for hell and others for heaven ?

Jesus said that He and the Father are One (not One Person, but one in essence, in character, in attributes, in purpose, in heart, etc.); so, if Jesus laid down his own life (and he did), then that was in unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit; otherwise, you would have the Trinity divided in purpose.

It's the word of God which states that God loved Jacob but hated Esau, before either was born, not because of foreseen works, but that God's purpose in election would stand. It's very hard to get round that...

 

[David1701]

And I stand firmly on the gospel according to Jesus and the Apostles.

next...

But, do you attempt to make a distinction between the gospel, as declared in Isaiah 53, and the gospel "according to Jesus and the Apostles"? I hope not...

 

[fltom]

Jesus said that He and the Father are One (not One Person, but one in essence, in character, in attributes, in purpose, in heart, etc.); so, if Jesus laid down his own life (and he did), then that was in unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit; otherwise, you would have the Trinity divided in purpose.

It's the word of God which states that God loved Jacob but hated Esau, before either was born, not because of foreseen works, but that God's purpose in election would stand. It's very hard to get round that...

Only if you imagine that is speaking of unconditional election to salvation

It is not

Rather it is a choice of a nation God would work through to bring his word and the Messiah into the world

 

[cadwell]

Do you believe the Law brings the wrath of God (Rom. 4:15)?

Yes. Romans 4:15 refers to the law of Moses. Do you believe the law of Moses was more than just wrath and curses? The unhealthy obsession with one aspect of the law clouds over nearly everything you say.

Deut 11
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jesus redeems us from the curse of the law, and blotted out the ordinances that were written against us, leaving us with the blessings, the things written for us. An innocent man dying for someone elses sins is unlawful (Deut 19:10, Deut 24:16). Gods wrath that is contained in the law is directed for those who transgress it (Deut 11:17), not the One who never sinned.

Do you believe Christ came to fulfill the Law (Mat. 5:17)?

I am sure everyone does. Matt 5:17 refers to the law of Moses.

If you change the death of Jesus to be unrelated to the Law of God, you formulate an economy of justice separated from an absolute holy standard.

Claiming Jesus died under the law of Moses declares that God is unjust. He made a law against killing an innocent man, and then broke that very law.

God no longer needs the Blood of Jesus to atone or forgive anything, it is just decoration.

Jesus didn't "set aside" the Law by violating it, but by fulfilling it.

Atonement found in the law of Moses is replaced by the new covenant in Christ. So He "set aside" the law of Moses by fulfilling it where it was lawful, and replacing it.

Nowhere in all the Bible is the Law of God circumvented, degraded, disregarded, unfulfilled, not honored, bypassed or ignored.

The bible says one law was replaced with another:

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

You are conflating the establishment of the new covenant with the demands of the old.

 

[Dizerner]

Yes. Romans 4:15 refers to the law of Moses. Do you believe the law of Moses was more than just wrath and curses? The unhealthy obsession with one aspect of the law clouds over nearly everything you say.

Lol, the purpose of the Law is given to us in Scripture. Secondarily it was symbolic, but primarily it was a ministration of death written on stone, the letter kills, the law brings wrath.

The purpose of the Law is expressly given to us: a tutor to bring us to Christ so we don't try to justify ourselves by the Law because we eventually realize we cannot attain it.

That's not an obsession: that's honoring the Biblical purpose.

Claiming Jesus died under the law of Moses declares that God is unjust. He made a law against killing an innocent man, and then broke that very law.

If Jesus bears our sin and guilt, he is not longer reckoned or accounted as innocent. This is why we are crucified with Christ. That means, if you have faith in Christ, you were crucified there too.

Are you innocent? Were you innocent when you were crucified with Christ? See, his union with you brings your guilt into the equation, whereby Jesus resolves your guilt by being punished for you. You were NOT innocent when you were crucified with Christ. Therefore your guilt was there with Christ when he was killed.

He sure must of loved you a lot.

Atonement found in the law of Moses is replaced by the new covenant in Christ. So He "set aside" the law of Moses by fulfilling it where it was lawful, and replacing it.

Paul said, through the Law he died to the Law. He did not say:

Setting aside the Law I died to the Law.
Violating the Law I died to the Law.
Replacing the Law I died to the Law.

THROUGH the Law—he died to the Law.

The bible says one law was replaced with another:

Because it was FULFILLED, not because it was ignored or abandoned, though.

It is FINISHED—the Law—it's finished. It's fulfilled.

Every jot. Every tittle. Every curse against your sins. Every punishment God has promised you as a sinner.

It is finished when Christ was forsaken for you.

You are conflating the establishment of the new covenant with the demands of the old.

THROUGH the Law I died to the Law.

THROUGH IT.

 

[fltom]

Here's more glorious Scripture:

For [Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
—Ephesians 2:14-16

Only Christ can accomplish this through His Sacrifice and Suffering to ransom (Purchase or Pay) with His Blood he propitiates God's Wrath and Judgement in our place!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

Do you have a verse which states Christ propitiates the wrath of God by bearing it himself?

There are verses on the other hand that speak of Christ remitting our sin so that there is no need for wrath


Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

---

Mark 1:4 (KJV)
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

---

Luke 1:77 (KJV)
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

---

Luke 3:3 (KJV)
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

---

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

---

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

---

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

---

Romans 3:25 (KJV)
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

---

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV)
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

---

Hebrews 10:18 (KJV)
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[cadwell]

Lol, the purpose of the Law is given to us in Scripture. Secondarily it was symbolic, but primarily it was a ministration of death written on stone, the letter kills, the law brings wrath.

The purpose of the Law is expressly given to us: a tutor to bring us to Christ so we don't try to justify ourselves by the Law because we eventually realize we cannot attain it.

That's not an obsession: that's honoring the Biblical purpose.

Its viewed as an obsession because that stated purpose was not for you. Paul is not telling his Gentile readers that the law was given to them as a schoolmaster. When he says US, he is referring to the Jews only. The Gentiles are included under the promise of Abraham, which came 430 years before the law of Moses. Once faith comes, the Jews are no longer under a schoolmaster, and therefore we all (Jew and Gentile) are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If Jesus bears our sin and guilt, he is not longer reckoned or accounted as innocent.

If Jesus bears our sin according to the law of Moses, He has transgressed it and everything said about Jesus having no sin goes out the window.

This is why we are crucified with Christ. That means, if you have faith in Christ, you were crucified there too.

Being crucified with Christ means we are the thief hanging next to Him, crying out against the injustice being done to Him, confessing our own sins and pleading to be with Him in His kingdom, not the ones on the ground saying He got what was deserved.

Are you innocent? Were you innocent when you were crucified with Christ? See, his union with you brings your guilt into the equation, whereby Jesus resolves your guilt by being punished for you. You were NOT innocent when you were crucified with Christ. Therefore your guilt was there with Christ when he was killed.

He sure must of loved you a lot.

A whole lot.

Paul said, through the Law he died to the Law. He did not say:

Setting aside the Law I died to the Law.
Violating the Law I died to the Law.
Replacing the Law I died to the Law.

THROUGH the Law—he died to the Law.

Yes, HE died to the law, through the law, not you.

Because it was FULFILLED, not because it was ignored or abandoned, though.

It is FINISHED—the Law—it's finished. It's fulfilled.

Every jot. Every tittle. Every curse against your sins. Every punishment God has promised you as a sinner.

It is finished when Christ was forsaken for you.

Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and that not one jot or tittle should pass until it ALL is fulfilled. There are many unfulfilled prophesies (Second Coming, third temple, etc) in the law and the prophets, so it is impossible for that to be what Jesus referred to when He said "It is finished".

THROUGH the Law I died to the Law.

THROUGH IT.

Paul was speaking of himself, not everyone.