Will the 800 million in USA be enough to turn the tide?

Thistle

Thistle

Well-known member
Will the 800 million in US aid be enough to turn the tide?

Seriously?

Russia has tactical nukes, and ICBMs; they literally never have to give up, and they're never gonna stop fighting the longest day that the country survives.

At some point Russia may "negotiate" a peace deal with the offer that's already on the table, which is a neutral Ukraine.

It seems to me that we should be figuring out how to get to that peaceful situation ASAP.

I really hate to be the Debbie Downer here, but it seems to me that getting to peace in as few steps as possible is the only play that is humane to the Ukrainian people.
 
Thistle said:
Will the 800 million in US aid be enough to turn the tide?

Seriously?

Russia has tactical nukes, and ICBMs; they literally never have to give up, and they're never gonna stop fighting the longest day that the country survives.

At some point Russia may "negotiate" a peace deal with the offer that's already on the table, which is a neutral Ukraine.

It seems to me that we should be figuring out how to get to that peaceful situation ASAP.

I really hate to be the Debbie Downer here, but it seems to me that getting to peace in as few steps as possible is the only play that is humane to the Ukrainian people.
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I don't want to be a downer either but Ukraine never stood a chance against Russia. Only reality could prove that wrong for me.

For as much as I don't like war, we should get out of the way.

Wartime is not the time to attempt to back door Ukraine under the US umbrella. That's insane, and right up Joey and the Dingbats alley, insane.
 
Furion said:
I don't want to be a downer either but Ukraine never stood a chance against Russia. Only reality could prove that wrong for me.

For as much as I don't like war, we should get out of the way.

Wartime is not the time to attempt to back door Ukraine under the US umbrella. That's insane, and right up Joey and the Dingbats alley, insane.
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As long as the Ukrainians are prepared to fight, we should be prepared to support them. Telling them that it would be good for them to give up, is a touch patronising, defeatist and rather pathetic.
 
Furion said:
I don't want to be a downer either but Ukraine never stood a chance against Russia. Only reality could prove that wrong for me.

For as much as I don't like war, we should get out of the way.

Wartime is not the time to attempt to back door Ukraine under the US umbrella. That's insane, and right up Joey and the Dingbats alley, insane.
Click to expand...
There is no "back door" to Ukraine vis-à-vis this war that the Russians can't observe. We need to take much more seriously the objective of staying out of this war.
 
Temujin said:
As long as the Ukrainians are prepared to fight, we should be prepared to support them. Telling them that it would be good for them to give up, is a touch patronising, defeatist and rather pathetic.
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I am totally sympathetic to the impulse behind this comment. But I have a serious question for you. Do you think that Russia is going to "just get over it" respecting Ukraine becoming a western aligned state? Russia has been telling us in no uncertain terms since 2007 the Georgia and Ukraine are red lines and everything that has happened from 2007 to now has reinforced the fact that they were deadly serious. Russia has battlefield tactical nuclear weapons and they're already on nuclear alert.

You don't seem to understand great power politics. Irrespective of Russia's conventional force, respecting nuclear capability Russia is a great power. Great powers don't "Just to get over it" when it comes to something that they deem to be an existential threat to their existence. Whether you agree that Ukraine aligning with NATO in the West as an
existential threat to Russia is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether Russia believes that Ukraine aligning with NATO is an existential threat.

I understand that it doesn't sound fair that the fate of Ukraine is not entirely in the hands of Ukrainians. I thank my lucky stars that the fate of the United States is to a much greater extent in the hands of Americans. But there's a reason for that, and the reason is that America is in fact a great power. Ukraine unfortunately happens to be on the border of a great power and that great power considers it to be an existential threat.

Russia will no more "just get over it" then we "just got over Cuba trying to align with the USSR." We put those sanctions in place on Cuba before I was born and those sanctions are still in place and people in Cuba are still driving cars that were manufactured in the 1950s The United States, being a great power, didn't "just get over it."

I just hope that there is some connection between this $800 million in aid and some kind of a plan to get to the negotiating table.
 
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Reepicheep said:
Do you believe that the Triune God is pleased with Putin for invading Ukraine and slaughtering civilians?
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I'm pretty sure that all things remaining equal God's against war. And I'm also absolutely sure that everyone who has done wrong in the execution of war regardless of which side we're talking about will give an account on judgment day. None of this relieves us of trying to come to a reasoned judgment about the best path forward.
 
Thistle said:
I'm pretty sure that all things remaining equal God's against war.
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Do you believe that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States are doing the will of Satan by supplying Ukraine with weapons?
 
Reepicheep said:
Do you believe that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States are doing the will of Satan by supplying Ukraine with weapons?
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I get a kick out of Marxists who don't understand economics.

Ask Satan
 
Reepicheep said:
Do you believe that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States are doing the will of Satan by supplying Ukraine with weapons?
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Wow you really gave the wording of that question quite a bit of thought. I'm not sure that that's a proper inference to be drawn from my prior comment.
 
Thistle said:
Wow you really gave the wording of that question quite a bit of thought. I'm not sure that that's a proper inference to be drawn from my prior comment.
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You didn't answer the question. To repeat:

Do you believe that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States are doing the will of Satan by supplying Ukraine with weapons?
 
Reepicheep said:
You didn't answer the question. To repeat:

Do you believe that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States are doing the will of Satan by supplying Ukraine with weapons?
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You're a regular Perry Mason! Well counselor, that is not my view.
 
Thistle said:
Will the 800 million in US aid be enough to turn the tide?

Seriously?

Russia has tactical nukes, and ICBMs; they literally never have to give up, and they're never gonna stop fighting the longest day that the country survives.

At some point Russia may "negotiate" a peace deal with the offer that's already on the table, which is a neutral Ukraine.

It seems to me that we should be figuring out how to get to that peaceful situation ASAP.

I really hate to be the Debbie Downer here, but it seems to me that getting to peace in as few steps as possible is the only play that is humane to the Ukrainian people.
Click to expand...
Any money is too much.

Eventually we'll hear we're going to put boots on the ground. Because our Austin date isn't enough.

Ukraine isn't as innocent as left wing media portrays.
Lord, this world.
 
Miriam said:
Any money is too much.

Eventually we'll hear we're going to put boots on the ground. Because our Austin date isn't enough.

Ukraine isn't as innocent as left wing media portrays.
Lord, this world.
Click to expand...
I find it easy to believe that the Nazis that happen to be Ukrainian are as diabolical as any of the Russians if not more so. I don't even think that's the point. However sympathetic I might be toward the Ukrainians desire for self determination they are on the doorstep of an 800 pound gorilla and I'm sorry to say that just changes things. We had two separate rounds of taking former Soviet satellite states into NATO. This caused Russia to build up their military. Owing to that and their nuclear capability they are in fact a great power and you can't cross a red line that a great power considers an existential threat to their existence because the agent just might launch a Thermo nuclear war. I'm not suggesting anything about that is fair. But from a purely humanitarian perspective nothing is going to get better for the Ukrainian people until they take a more realistic approach.
 
Thistle said:
I am totally sympathetic to the impulse behind this comment. But I have a serious question for you. Do you think that Russia is going to "just get over it" respecting Ukraine becoming a western aligned state? Russia has been telling us in no uncertain terms since 2007 the Georgia and Ukraine are red lines and everything that has happened from 2007 to now has reinforced the fact that they were deadly serious. Russia has battlefield tactical nuclear weapons and they're already on nuclear alert.

You don't seem to understand great power politics. Irrespective of Russia's conventional force, respecting nuclear capability Russia is a great power. Great powers don't "Just to get over it" when it comes to something that they deem to be an existential threat to their existence. Whether you agree that Ukraine aligning with NATO in the West as an
existential threat to Russia is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether Russia believes that Ukraine aligning with NATO is an existential threat.

I understand that it doesn't sound fair that the fate of Ukraine is not entirely in the hands of Ukrainians. I thank my lucky stars that the fate of the United States is to a much greater extent in the hands of Americans. But there's a reason for that, and the reason is that America is in fact a great power. Ukraine unfortunately happens to be on the border of a great power and that great power considers it to be an existential threat.

Russia will no more "just get over it" then we "just got over Cuba trying to align with the USSR." We put those sanctions in place on Cuba before I was born and those sanctions are still in place and people in Cuba are still driving cars that were manufactured in the 1950s The United States, being a great power, didn't "just get over it."

I just hope that there is some connection between this $800 million in aid and some kind of a plan to get to the negotiating table.
Click to expand...
No, I don't think that Russia will just get over it. I expect that the end of this crisis will come about only after cataclysmic upheavals in the lives and well-being of the citizens of many countries. The aim is to make sure that the main burden is felt by Russia. More particularly that Russia foresees that the main burden will fall on her. Don't make excuses for Putin. There is nothing defensive about this war at all. He has been acting in this way for years. The failure of the west was the lack of reaction over Crimea.


If this war was started to prevent NATO influence from expanding, it has already failed. NATO is stronger now than it ever was, and poised to pick up both Sweden and Finland. Putin cannot be allowed to get away with this. Because if he does, he won't stop. And because if he does, he hands a working play book to China, whose actions in the South China Sea mirror Putin's land grabs. Nuclear weapons are meant to deter both sides. They won't be used because Russia is more than just one selfish, embittered and miscalculating old man. He cannot act without the support of others. Those who are in the positions to press the firing buttons are not as doped to the eyeballs with propaganda as the rest of the population.
 
Temujin said:
As long as the Ukrainians are prepared to fight, we should be prepared to support them. Telling them that it would be good for them to give up, is a touch patronising, defeatist and rather pathetic.
Click to expand...
Tell them to muster everything they've got, and then muster some more, and here is some ammo. Ok.
 
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