Calvin believed complete divine determinism

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Including determining sinful acts.. Or so it seems.

A quote:

But the question about the will of man is unseasonably introduced on the present occasion. If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.

@Josheb
 
Including determining sinful acts.. Or so it seems.

A quote:

But the question about the will of man is unseasonably introduced on the present occasion. If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.

@Josheb
There are many such quotes

John Calvin himself taught:
“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
 
Yes and double predestination
“Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
 
Including determining sinful acts.. Or so it seems.

A quote:

But the question about the will of man is unseasonably introduced on the present occasion. If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.

@Josheb
God's control is not a violent compulsion. God's turning a person's thoughts and actions to His purpose is not a violent compulsion.

I disagree and find the position utter sophistry.

He regulates all movements of men so they still have free will.

That is a more accurate reflection of scripture. Control and regulation are not identical terms, nor are they synonymous.

The Isaiah text on which Calvin is commenting is prophetic. Prophecy is deterministic. Non-prophecy is not necessarily so. Here's the verse Calvin is referencing,

Isaiah 10:15
Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.

God is using a human analogy. The person chopping with the axe determines its blow. In using the analogy God is implicitly acknowledge the power of the human to influence inanimate objects, just as God is able to influence the human wielding the axe. Axes do not have any volition. Human axe-wielders do.

Calvin compares the human-centric volitionalist's interpretation, "By my power... I have contrived and accomplished these things," to Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 in which God states He does not permit His glory to be given to another. The human who wields the axe cannot say he wields the axe over God or His glory. God does not permit that. The axe-wielding human can say he legitimately wields the inanimate axe over the inanimate wood being chopped. He cannot say he wielded the axe in defiance of God's will because God does not permit things He does not permit.

Prophetically God can make that man strike himself instead of the wood. This is especially so if God is doing so out of judgment. Prophecy is a unique form of direction that is not common to all of creation, all of history. It is the exception to the rule: history will go on but at a specified point in history I, God, will force something specific to happen. Neither is prophetic judgment to be conflated with salvation.

Pharaoh and Moses are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. God can make Pharaoh be the guy who will lose his kingdom and all its wealth and He can make Moses the guy who would be raised in Pharoah's courts so as to be trained as a leader instead of a slave so that one day he would be forced back to Egypt AND God can acquiesce His own preferences to the slow of tongue man reluctant to believe God wholly and do ALL that God asks.

The problem occurring all too many times in the Arm v Cal debate is all-or-nothing-thinking. God can either be controlling everything or nothing.

That's not whole scripture. Scripture shows varying degrees of direct control and consenting agency of the creature.

So don't quote mine Calvin and imagine anything of substance has been accomplished. Calvin understood he was commenting on prophecy. His comments should not be overgeneralized beyond their scope or the application he intended.

And NOTHING I have ever posted should ever be construed to say God is incapable of controlling a person or in any way reluctant to do so. He can speak every poster in CARM out of existence if He so chooses and it would not matter one bit how much we protest. Our will on the matter would be meaningless.
 
God's control is not a violent compulsion. God's turning a person's thoughts and actions to His purpose is not a violent compulsion.

I disagree and find the position utter sophistry.

He regulates all movements of men so they still have free will.

That is a more accurate reflection of scripture. Control and regulation are not identical terms, nor are they synonymous.

The Isaiah text on which Calvin is commenting is prophetic. Prophecy is deterministic. Non-prophecy is not necessarily so. Here's the verse Calvin is referencing,

Isaiah 10:15
Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.

God is using a human analogy. The person chopping with the axe determines its blow. In using the analogy God is implicitly acknowledge the power of the human to influence inanimate objects, just as God is able to influence the human wielding the axe. Axes do not have any volition. Human axe-wielders do.

Calvin compares the human-centric volitionalist's interpretation, "By my power... I have contrived and accomplished these things," to Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 in which God states He does not permit His glory to be given to another. The human who wields the axe cannot say he wields the axe over God or His glory. God does not permit that. The axe-wielding human can say he legitimately wields the inanimate axe over the inanimate wood being chopped. He cannot say he wielded the axe in defiance of God's will because God does not permit things He does not permit.

Prophetically God can make that man strike himself instead of the wood. This is especially so if God is doing so out of judgment. Prophecy is a unique form of direction that is not common to all of creation, all of history. It is the exception to the rule: history will go on but at a specified point in history I, God, will force something specific to happen. Neither is prophetic judgment to be conflated with salvation.

Pharaoh and Moses are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. God can make Pharaoh be the guy who will lose his kingdom and all its wealth and He can make Moses the guy who would be raised in Pharoah's courts so as to be trained as a leader instead of a slave so that one day he would be forced back to Egypt AND God can acquiesce His own preferences to the slow of tongue man reluctant to believe God wholly and do ALL that God asks.

The problem occurring all too many times in the Arm v Cal debate is all-or-nothing-thinking. God can either be controlling everything or nothing.

That's not whole scripture. Scripture shows varying degrees of direct control and consenting agency of the creature.

So don't quote mine Calvin and imagine anything of substance has been accomplished. Calvin understood he was commenting on prophecy. His comments should not be overgeneralized beyond their scope or the application he intended.

And NOTHING I have ever posted should ever be construed to say God is incapable of controlling a person or in any way reluctant to do so. He can speak every poster in CARM out of existence if He so chooses and it would not matter one bit how much we protest. Our will on the matter would be meaningless.
No he very clearly says God regulates all movements of men there. But that is not all he has to say on the matter. And his words are very plain and concise.

More from calvin:

Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.

...

6. As we know that it was chiefly for the sake of mankind that the world was made, we must look to this as the end which God has in view in the government of it.

The prophet Jeremiah exclaims, “O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps,” (Jeremiah 10:23). Solomon again says, “Man’s goings are of the Lord: how can a man then understand his own way?” (Proverbs 20:24).

Will it now be said that man is moved by God according to the bent of his nature, but that man himself gives the movement any direction he pleases? Were it truly so, man would have the full disposal of his own ways.

To this it will perhaps be answered, that man can do nothing without the power of God. But the answer will not avail, since both Jeremiah and Solomon attribute to God not power only, but also election and decree. And Solomon, in another place, elegantly rebukes the rashness of men in fixing their plans without reference to God, as if they were not led by his hand. “The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord,” (Proverbs 16:1). It is a strange infatuation, surely for miserable men, who cannot even give utterance except in so far as God pleases, to begin to act without him!

Scriptures moreover, the better to show that every thing done in the world is according to his decree, declare that the things which seem most fortuitous are subject to him. For what seems more attributable to chance than the branch which falls from a tree, and kills the passing traveler? But the Lord sees very differently, and declares that He delivered him into the hand of the slayer (Exodus. 21:13). In like manners who does not attribute the lot to the blindness of Fortune? Not so the Lord, who claims the decision for himself (Proverbs 16:33). He says not, that by his power the lot is thrown into the lap, and taken out, but declares that the only thing which could be attributed to chance is from him.

For we do not with the Stoics imagine a necessity consisting of a perpetual chain of causes, and a kind of involved series contained in nature, but we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, – that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined
 
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God's control is not a violent compulsion. God's turning a person's thoughts and actions to His purpose is not a violent compulsion.

I disagree and find the position utter sophistry.

He regulates all movements of men so they still have free will.

That is a more accurate reflection of scripture. Control and regulation are not identical terms, nor are they synonymous.

The Isaiah text on which Calvin is commenting is prophetic. Prophecy is deterministic. Non-prophecy is not necessarily so. Here's the verse Calvin is referencing,

Isaiah 10:15
Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.

God is using a human analogy. The person chopping with the axe determines its blow. In using the analogy God is implicitly acknowledge the power of the human to influence inanimate objects, just as God is able to influence the human wielding the axe. Axes do not have any volition. Human axe-wielders do.

Calvin compares the human-centric volitionalist's interpretation, "By my power... I have contrived and accomplished these things," to Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 in which God states He does not permit His glory to be given to another. The human who wields the axe cannot say he wields the axe over God or His glory. God does not permit that. The axe-wielding human can say he legitimately wields the inanimate axe over the inanimate wood being chopped. He cannot say he wielded the axe in defiance of God's will because God does not permit things He does not permit.

Prophetically God can make that man strike himself instead of the wood. This is especially so if God is doing so out of judgment. Prophecy is a unique form of direction that is not common to all of creation, all of history. It is the exception to the rule: history will go on but at a specified point in history I, God, will force something specific to happen. Neither is prophetic judgment to be conflated with salvation.

Pharaoh and Moses are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. God can make Pharaoh be the guy who will lose his kingdom and all its wealth and He can make Moses the guy who would be raised in Pharoah's courts so as to be trained as a leader instead of a slave so that one day he would be forced back to Egypt AND God can acquiesce His own preferences to the slow of tongue man reluctant to believe God wholly and do ALL that God asks.

The problem occurring all too many times in the Arm v Cal debate is all-or-nothing-thinking. God can either be controlling everything or nothing.

That's not whole scripture. Scripture shows varying degrees of direct control and consenting agency of the creature.

So don't quote mine Calvin and imagine anything of substance has been accomplished. Calvin understood he was commenting on prophecy. His comments should not be overgeneralized beyond their scope or the application he intended.

And NOTHING I have ever posted should ever be construed to say God is incapable of controlling a person or in any way reluctant to do so. He can speak every poster in CARM out of existence if He so chooses and it would not matter one bit how much we protest. Our will on the matter would be meaningless.
To add to the already definitive quotes from calvin, I add this slam dunk debate ender:

Calvin: .But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation
 
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Yes and double predestination
Most Calvinists don't hold to double predestination. And unless I've forgotten, you don't either. So why bring it up. It's not germaine to the topic
No he very clearly says God regulates all movements of men there. But that is not all he has to say on the matter. And his words are very plain and concise.

More from calvin:

Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.

...

6. As we know that it was chiefly for the sake of mankind that the world was made, we must look to this as the end which God has in view in the government of it.

The prophet Jeremiah exclaims, “O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps,” (Jeremiah 10:23). Solomon again says, “Man’s goings are of the Lord: how can a man then understand his own way?” (Proverbs 20:24).
Quote snipped for CC.
Who cares what others say? The Bible says this:

Psalm139

139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.
19 O that You would slay the wicked, O God;
Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.


Before we were ever born, God knew everything about us.
 
Most Calvinists don't hold to double predestination. And unless I've forgotten, you don't either. So why bring it up. It's not germaine to the topic

Who cares what others say? The Bible says this:

Psalm139

139 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.
19 O that You would slay the wicked, O God;
Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.


Before we were ever born, God knew everything about us.
To some degree we all care what others say or we woudnt be here running our yappers.
?
 
And NOTHING I have ever posted should ever be construed to say God is incapable of controlling a person or in any way reluctant to do so. He can speak every poster in CARM out of existence if He so chooses and it would not matter one bit how much we protest. Our will on the matter would be meaningless.
The question is not one of God's capacity or right to do so, for that he most definitely has; but it is a question of what God has established as being of importance. That God has established a obedience/disobedience format is evidence that man was created with volitional freedom to do one or the other. He was also created as a creature of reason, which compliments his volitional freedom. God established this format, and while God has the right and means to have not done it in this, a certainly could have created a fully deterministic system or one in which the will of man would be meaningless or even nonexistent. But the scripture's do not paint that kind of picture. Man is always given the responsibility of action in response to God's instructions and commands in scripture, and to say that his will or decision is meaningless is not in keeping with scripture.

Doug
 
Including determining sinful acts.. Or so it seems.

A quote:

But the question about the will of man is unseasonably introduced on the present occasion. If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.

@Josheb
I agree.
 
The question is not one of God's capacity or right to do so, for that he most definitely has; but it is a question of what God has established as being of importance. That God has established a obedience/disobedience format is evidence that man was created with volitional freedom to do one or the other. He was also created as a creature of reason, which compliments his volitional freedom. God established this format, and while God has the right and means to have not done it in this, a certainly could have created a fully deterministic system or one in which the will of man would be meaningless or even nonexistent. But the scripture's do not paint that kind of picture. Man is always given the responsibility of action in response to God's instructions and commands in scripture, and to say that his will or decision is meaningless is not in keeping with scripture.

Doug
Do you believe John 10 teaches free will salvation?
 
Many Christians will say they believe in the Bible. Yet we have but to see in this thread and others containing the similar theme, how few accept what it actually says when it conflicts with what they prefer to believe instead.

That isn't respect for God's words.

That's heretical interpolation.


It's like those who insist God didn't create sin.
When sin preexisted Eden. That's how by one man sin entered the world.

Sin existed in Heaven when Lucifer led 1/3rd of God's angels in the war against God.

God created Hell. You either believe God created all or you don't.
Thinking there is something that exists, that happens, that Omniscience cannot know, Sovereign Omnipotence has no power over, is unable to control, is thinking less of God and more of one's own ideal god.

Why do we need to be saved from sin in the first place?

WAKE UP!

And stop using men's doctrines as a catapult to blaspheme God, sponsor heresy, and mock God's Sovereignty by condemning,criticizing, invalidating, God's words that first laid the groundwork for men to build their doctrines upon.

God is everything God tells us God is in his own words.

God
Created
EVERYTHING!
John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
 
To add to the already definitive quotes from calvin, I add this slam dunk debate ender:

Calvin: .But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation
Seems like a contradiction
 
The question is not one of God's capacity or right to do so, for that he most definitely has; but it is a question of what God has established as being of importance. That God has established a obedience/disobedience format is evidence that man was created with volitional freedom to do one or the other. He was also created as a creature of reason, which compliments his volitional freedom. God established this format, and while God has the right and means to have not done it in this, a certainly could have created a fully deterministic system or one in which the will of man would be meaningless or even nonexistent. But the scripture's do not paint that kind of picture. Man is always given the responsibility of action in response to God's instructions and commands in scripture, and to say that his will or decision is meaningless is not in keeping with scripture.

Doug
Good post Doug. As a compatibilist I can agree for the most part.
 
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