Secrets of the Cell: Dr. Michael Behe

Arkycharlie

Super Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw94qm4qdn8&t=1562s

This is just a "taste" of Dr. Behe's latest book: Darwin Devolves: The New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution

In a previous thread, "the Pixie" refers to him as a "huckster". And she brags that she's spent a massive10 years researching the subject of evolution. I personally have spent over 40 years, but who's counting. Evolutionists who want to debate evolution vs ID in this forum yet refuse to read books of this caliber are either fools or willfully ignorant, if not both.
 
In a previous thread, "the Pixie" refers to him as a "huckster". ...
But you do not link to that. Why is that? You made it up.

A search of the forum will reveal I have never used that word before this post. I actually think he is sincere in what he believes; it is more a case of self-delusion. Here is what I have said of him:

Behe's argument has been trashed enough by others. It rests on shifting definitions; he starts by saying an IC system cannot evolve by a direct route, but that quietly changes his definition to say an IC system cannot evolve by any route.

His argument was destroyed in court at Kitzmiller vs Dover, where it was shown that there were evolutionary routes to supposedly IC systems. Specifically Behe claimed the immune system was IC, and real scientists showed that Behe was simply ignoring the piles of scientific literature on the subject.

When Behe was presented with a pile of papers that showed how the blood clotting cascade could evolve, he pretty much just hand-waved them away.

"Yes, I did. I went through many of the papers that Professor Miller cited, as many as I could, and simply, as a shorthand way of trying to indicate or trying to convey why I don't regard any of them as persuasive, I simply did a search for the phrases, random mutation, which is abbreviated here in this column, RM, and the phrase, natural selection.
Random mutation, of course, and natural selection are the two elements of the Darwinian mechanism. That is what is at issue here. And so this is, you know, this is, of course, a crude and perhaps shorthand way, but nonetheless, I think this illustrates why I do not find any of these papers persuasive.
When I go through the papers that Professor Miller cited on the blood clotting cascade, Semba, et al, Robinson, et al, Jiang and Doolittle, there are no references to those phrases, random mutation and natural selection."

He could not find the phrases "random mutation" or "natural selection", so assumed they were not relevant!

Not complimentary, but I stand by what I said. And I never actually called him a "huckster".

I will comment on the video later, but the fact that he is using a Youtube video to present his case is a good sign he knows it is not good enough to be committed to paper.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw94qm4qdn8&t=1562s

This is just a "taste" of Dr. Behe's latest book: Darwin Devolves: The New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution

In a previous thread, "the Pixie" refers to him as a "huckster". And she brags that she's spent a massive10 years researching the subject of evolution. I personally have spent over 40 years, but who's counting. Evolutionists who want to debate evolution vs ID in this forum yet refuse to read books of this caliber are either fools or willfully ignorant, if not both.
10 years trying to understand material that should have taken only a few minutes. Myth isn’t that difficult to identify
 
The video seems to be two episodes in one. So far I just watched the first.

Earlier on Behe says:

"Well in the ten years after that I didn't come across any science publications that adequately answered the nagging question: exactly how did the cell get to be so complex?"

Flip this around, and look at ID. I have been looking at ID for around 20 years. In that 20 years I haven't come across any science publications - or even a Youtube video as that seems to be ID's preferred outlet for its "science" - that adequately answered the nagging question: exactly how did the intelligent designer create living organisms?

This seems to be Behe's big argument, and he comes back to it at the end. Essentially he is saying he will reject evolution until scientists can provide a complete step-by-step path from early bacteria to humans.

He tried the same trick at the Kitzmiller court case. After claiming the blood clotting system is irreducibly complex, he was presented with a whole pile of scientific articles that soundly refuted his claim. His response was to reject the lot out of hand because they did not give the level of detail he demanded.

A level of detail a million miles from what he demands for his own pet theory, of course. Why is that? Because his position is founded on faith, not science. AKA creationism.


It is interesting that Behe says he was convinced evolution was wrong by Denton's book, "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis", given Denton has since acknowledged that he got much of that book wrong. Denton is now an evolutionist - though he advocates guided evolution, and rejects Darwinian evolution. He has gone from saying common descent is wrong in his earlier book to accepting it as true in his later book.

Behe's conversion to ID is based on a book that is now acknowledged to be wrong by the author!

But then, this is not about evidence, this is about a theist cherry-picking the data to support his faith position. AKA creationism.


From just before the 6 minute mark he goes off on irreducible complexity, and he is still plugging away at his mousetrap. This is old news. He was banging this drum back in 1996.

It has been soundly refuted, even in a court of law. Here is a great summary of why he is wrong.


Around nine minutes he starts rabbiting on about how great insects are. His argument seems to be that he cannot see how evolution can create complexity, therefore it cannot. This is the same argument IDists have been peddling from the start, and creationist before that.


Then we get to how polar bears evolved around 13 minutes. Not too sure what his point is there; he tells us how evolution explains it.... and leaves it at that. There is no suggestion it is wrong as far as I can see...


Finally he circles back to his original position. Until evolutionists can provide a step-by-step account for the evolution of life over the last four billion years, he will reject it in favour of "God did it"

He asks:
  • What precisely are those helpful mutations in DNA?
  • How exactly do genes change?
It is, as ever, god-of-the-gaps, with the creationist careful to find gaps that, while small, are going to be around for a while.

This is just a "taste" of Dr. Behe's latest book: Darwin Devolves: The New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution
So far I have seen nothing new in the video, precious little about DNA and certainly nothing that challenges evolution.

Perhaps, Arkycharlie, you can present Behe's new argument in your own words? I mean, I am guessing you cannot, but maybe you will surprise us.
 
I will comment on the video later, but the fact that he is using a Youtube video to present his case is a good sign he knows it is not good enough to be committed to paper.
Did you even bother to read the OP? I thought it was rather clear but apparently, it was above your reading level. Let’s try again. I posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw94qm4qdn8&t=1562s
This is just a "taste" of Dr. Behe's latest book:
Darwin Devolves: The New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution

So just to be clear, Behe committed his assertions to a book, the title of which was provided in the OP. Now do you understand?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw94qm4qdn8&t=1562s

This is just a "taste" of Dr. Behe's latest book: Darwin Devolves: The New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution

In a previous thread, "the Pixie" refers to him as a "huckster". And she brags that she's spent a massive10 years researching the subject of evolution. I personally have spent over 40 years, but who's counting. Evolutionists who want to debate evolution vs ID in this forum yet refuse to read books of this caliber are either fools or willfully ignorant, if not both.
You might be right re. willful ignorance, but the same can be said of anyone who wont read books about the US government taking down the WTC towers, or about the moon landing being faked, or the existence of a Jewish cabal controlling international markets, etc. All of us are willfully ignorant about many subjects.

The real question is this: what justification do we have for reading this particular book? Clearly, those who wish to see the ToE undermined will grab anything that helps them do this; I can loosely assume this is your justification for reading / advocating it (though to be clear, I assume your justification is more complex than this).

What's MY justification, though? I've been watching Christian creationists stay willfully ignorant about the ToE for 35 years now. I've watched them try to legislate against education in it, lie about it in discussion forums like this one, and declare that nothing which contradicts the Bible can ever be true. I've watched these same people advocate the challenging of beliefs/ideas while simultaneously avoiding having their own similarly challenged. I've also watched creationist scientists fail to adhere to scientific standards, fail to falsify the theory in question, and be marginalized in the scientific community in general.

I have tons of justification for not reading this book.

Convince me it wouldn't be a waste of my time.
 
You might be right re. willful ignorance, but the same can be said of anyone who wont read books about the US government taking down the WTC towers, or about the moon landing being faked, or the existence of a Jewish cabal controlling international markets, etc. All of us are willfully ignorant about many subjects.

The real question is this: what justification do we have for reading this particular book? Clearly, those who wish to see the ToE undermined will grab anything that helps them do this; I can loosely assume this is your justification for reading / advocating it (though to be clear, I assume your justification is more complex than this).

What's MY justification, though? I've been watching Christian creationists stay willfully ignorant about the ToE for 35 years now. I've watched them try to legislate against education in it, lie about it in discussion forums like this one, and declare that nothing which contradicts the Bible can ever be true. I've watched these same people advocate the challenging of beliefs/ideas while simultaneously avoiding having their own similarly challenged. I've also watched creationist scientists fail to adhere to scientific standards, fail to falsify the theory in question, and be marginalized in the scientific community in general.

I have tons of justification for not reading this book.

Convince me it wouldn't be a waste of my time.
That’s pretty good, resisting truth for 35 years‼️ Whoa fantastic immunity
 
Did you even bother to read the OP? I thought it was rather clear but apparently, it was above your reading level. Let’s try again. I posted:



So just to be clear, Behe committed his assertions to a book, the title of which was provided in the OP. Now do you understand?
Okay, fair point. This is how I ended my second post:

Perhaps, Arkycharlie, you can present Behe's new argument in your own words? I mean, I am guessing you cannot, but maybe you will surprise us.

Can you do that? What is this supposedly "New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution"? Can you tell us? I watched the first half of the video, and I saw nothing new there, little about DNA and nothing that challenges evolution.

Someone around here apparently described Behe as a huckster. Telling me I need to fork out $18 to see his claims before I can discern whether they have any value is making me think that that is right.

Are you here to discuss the claims? Or are you just hawking his book?
 
I watched most of the rest. It seems to be several episodes in one video.

Around 17 minutes he notes that the lost of a gene made an E coli strain grow faster, and many dog breeds are due to a loss of a gene. Then he extrapolates from that very limited dataset to assume that all genetic change is due to a loss. Nothing new here.


Around 20 minutes he starts the third part. Back to complexity. More specifically "insanely complex machinery". How is that for building your conclusion into your premise? Inevitably he goes back to irreducibly complex. He gives us this definition:

"All the parts are necessary in order for an irreducibly complex system to work"

It is like he has learnt nothing in the last twenty years or so. There are plenty of examples of systems like this that have reasonably evolutionary pathways - the blood clotting system being the most well known. He was told this in a court of law, so he should know better.

Or is he trying to pull the wool over our eyes?


Then we get the Paley's watch argument - it looks like it is design, so by golly it must be. He shows an arrangement of sticks, about 18 of them arranged in an arrow shape. It is almost certainly something that has been set up for the video. His argument is that this think that was designed looks like it was designed, and therefore anything else that was designed must also be designed.

He then goes on to rationalise why ID is not about the designer.

When you come across this formation for the first time, what can you conclude when examining it? There is no apparent evidence that shows when it was made, who made it, how it was made.

IDists like to pretend their nonsense is science, and part of that is keeping God out of it. This was an especially big deal when they were still hoping to smuggle creationism into the class room using ID. Hence this comment.

Behe is, of course, wrong. I can tell you for certain that the formation was made by humans, and it was likely made by members of Behe's production team. The video is dated 3/May/22, so the formation was probably made in April 2022, but was definitely made in the last few decades. As for how it was made, I am pretty sure one or two people sent a few moments clearing the area, then placed the sticks there with their hands. An examination of the ends of the sticks would reveal how they were cut. This is a great illustration of the difference in approach between science and ID. ID just declares we cannot know, science tries to find out anyway. ID is pseudo-science.


Behe then says:

"The purposeful arrangement of parts - that is the way, the only way, to recognise the work of a mind."

It therefore follows that the only way to determine design is to show the item has purpose to the designer. According to Behe, nothing else will cut it. And yet Behe is adamant we can know nothing about the designer. Behe has successful shot himself in the foot.
 
Okay, fair point. This is how I ended my second post:

Perhaps, Arkycharlie, you can present Behe's new argument in your own words? I mean, I am guessing you cannot, but maybe you will surprise us.

Can you do that? What is this supposedly "New Science About DNA That Challenges Evolution"? Can you tell us? I watched the first half of the video, and I saw nothing new there, little about DNA and nothing that challenges evolution.

Someone around here apparently described Behe as a huckster. Telling me I need to fork out $18 to see his claims before I can discern whether they have any value is making me think that that is right.

Are you here to discuss the claims? Or are you just hawking his book?
Pixie, just keep you hands tightly held against your ears. That’ll help keep you from hearing proofs and evidences that contradict your faith in evolution
 
Pixie, just keep you hands tightly held against your ears. That’ll help keep you from hearing proofs and evidences that contradict your faith in evolution
Every time a Christian disparages religious faith, atheists win another debate.
 
Then he extrapolates from that very limited dataset to assume that all genetic change is due to a loss. Nothing new here.
Seems as if the evos claim all the changes to genetics are due to a form of vertical evolutionism. Keeping in mind this has never been witnessed...where genetic change due to the loss of already established genetics have been witnessed.
 
That’ll help keep you from hearing proofs and evidences that contradict your faith in evolution
Yet another ID/Creationist who thinks that science is superior to evolution. When you want to disparage evolution you try to make it look like a religion: "faith" instead of science. That shows that you place science above religion.

I find that a very strange attitude for someone who is, presumably, not an atheist.
 
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