God walks into His Temple.

[Towerwatchman]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

There are some in my fellowship who believe that Samuel was not there, but Saul only heard and saw what the woman suggested. I believe that Samuel was actually there, and to the surprise of both Saul and the woman God raised Samuel from the dead, clothed him, and God through Samuel pronounced the judgement upon Saul and his coming death. I also believe the same with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. I believe that this was an enacted vision of the Kingdom, when Moses and Elijah will be glorified and be with Jesus. I believe that when they are raised from the dead Samuel, Moses and Elijah will all remember their encounters when they were temporarily raised for these incidents. Yes, the three of these were conscious, aware and with thought.

You are writing your belief into Scripture. Scripture does not support this, when in fact it disagrees with you. Nothing in Scripture hints that either Samuel, Moses, or Elijah were raised from the dead. The text is clear, the woman saw a spirit. Also nothing in the gospels hints that Moses and Elijah were raised from the dead. Also your idea does not follow the Biblical norm. Notice that in all the occasions when someone came back from the dead, it was their remains that was 'regenerated'. Either a dead body came back to life 1 King 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:18-37, 2 Kings 13:20–21, Luke 7:11–17, Luke 8:49–56, John 11:1-44, Acts 9:36-42, Acts 20:7–12
or the graves of the saints were opened, Mt. 27:50-54.
The more you write into scripture the more you deviate from the truth, and eventually you deviate so far that you create your own religion absent from The True God, and Jesus Christ.

Going back to your oft repeated question, this is not really a question, but a statement and it reveals your perspective of Jesus as a God-man. What surprises me, and possibly surprises most Trinitarians is that you believe that during his ministry and even during his death that somehow Jesus was also in heaven administering the universe (unless you imagine he was directing things from earth). You seem to consider Jesus as two separate entities, almost completely distinct from each other, with two separate minds and even actions.

Notice your MO. When you cannot answer the question you withdraw to changing the facts. Fact = I asked a question, [use of ?] you now argue its a statement. Why? It's answerable.
As to "two minds" that's a problem that non-trins have to deal with. As to Trinitarians we believe that Jesus has upheld, supported, and directed all of creation from its commencement to today.
Plus "and possibly surprises most Trinitarians" is a fallacy. = "No true Scotsman."

A true Christian has to be able to reconcile their beliefs with all of Scripture, logically and reasonably.
'... and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Either Hebrews is true or not. If not then how can we trust the Bible?

Back to two minds, we do not believe Jesus has two minds, but one. He is able to uphold the universe at all time because He is God
Phil 2 [which you also ignore] states that Jesus was equal with God in quality and quantity.
Equality translates from
isos Equal = 2470 ἴσος [isos /ee•sos/] adj. Probably from 1492 (through the idea of seeming); TDNT 3:343; TDNTA 370; GK 2698; Eight occurrences; AV translates as “equal” four times, “agree together + 2258” twice, “as much” once, and “like” once. 1 equal, in quantity or quality.

Jesus did not consider His equality with God when I took on flesh. Note 'robbery, grasp, use to his advantage translates from =

772 ἁρπαγμός (harpagmos), οῦ (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ Str 725; TDNT 1.473—1. LN 57.235 plunder, something taken by force (Php 2:6+), for another interp, see next; 2. LN 57.236 retain by force, here the focus is on the holding of something by force (Php 2:6+)Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. DBLG 772, #2

"robbery, grasp, use to his advantage" translates from harpagmos which is written as a noun not a verb. Equality with God was something that Jesus possessed and chose not to display while on earth. God is immutable, does not change, there is never a time when God is not God, and the same applies to Jesus. As God, Jesus was able to uphold the universe before, and after the incarnation.

Seeing your "question" is really only a statement, I will give a brief statement of my perspective. Jesus was a man, and he upheld and overcame all things relative to his ministry, and the suffering of death, and the overcoming of sin in all its forms. Because of this Jesus is the New Adam, the Son of Man of Psalm 8:4-6, 80:17 whom God sustained and made strong to accomplish his mission, and where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded and has been given dominion of the earth, the king of the kingdom, and all things have been placed under his jurisdiction. I do not believe that Jesus' role is to rule the Universe, but his role is to rule the earth and he will return and reign on the earth for the 1000 years. Even in this period he will not be directly involved in what is happening on planet Mars, the Milky Way, or the multitude of other galaxies. Yahweh, God the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth Matthew 11:25-30, while Jesus is the Messiah of the earth, the new Lord, given his authority from God the Father and Jesus calls us to come unto him.

Kind regards
Trevor

This leans towards the Jehovah's Witness worldview. The above is not supported by Scripture, plus the verses you cited does not support you main ideas but agrees with titles you used ie, 'son of man, new Adam, Lord of Heaven and Earth.'

So I will ask you again, since you have not answered.

If Jesus was sustaining the universe when He purged our sins, [at His crucifixion and death], and the universe continued to exist and function for the next three days and nights; how did Jesus, who is just a man, sustain and uphold ALL THINGS when He [Jesus} was dead and buried?

Phil 2:6 If Jesus is a created man how was He able to consider anything before conception?

God Bless
TWM

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

nothing in the gospels hints that Moses and Elijah were raised from the dead.

We know that Moses died and was buried, and yet he appeared in glory on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. How do you explain the word "glory" wrt Moses, and do the "Spirits" of the departed look like the individual or are they like ghosts? I do not believe in conscious immortal souls and immaterial spirits.

Back to two minds, we do not believe Jesus has two minds, but one.

When he was a child he learnt wisdom Luke 2:40,52.

This leans towards the Jehovah's Witness worldview.

My fellowship and beliefs preceded the JWs and we disagree on many aspects especially as we believe that Jesus will return and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and will convert a significant remnant of the nation of Israel and submit and educate the nations. The JW worldview is the complete destruction of the nations, and the preservation of 144,000 in heaven and many more JWs on the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Towerwatchman]

Yep, and those accusations are repeatedly refuted by Christ himself. It is God who grants authority to Christ. Christ doesn't grant it to himself.

You point out how others do not do their homework, but you don't practice what you preach. Care to share your support?

Grammatically, he is saying no such thing. That claim has been debunked so frequently, I don't know why people still bother presenting it.

Care to debunk it? We have Thomas saying to Jesus "My Lord and My God". = Jesus is God

No. They most certainly did not.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Ti 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Not sure why you can't follow.

Better yet, not sure why you can't explain yourself.

Yes, and no. Jesus began his ministry by enjoining his listeners to "deny yourself". Presumably, he followed this advice as well, no? In other words, Christ personifies self denial or self sacrifice. He is not speaking for himself because there is no self for him to speak for anymore.

Self denial seems to be the center of your theology. More Buddhist than Christian.

Within John's gospel it is the word of God personified who is speaking. The word of God affirms that he comes from God, but whatever comes from God is not God. What comes from God manifests God or God's will.

Again do your homework, chapter and verse.

Perhaps you might want to point out why you're posting scripture which you believe doesn't say what it clearly says.

Let's simplify this.
You wrote "He says that he only says what is given to him to say from the father. He only does what he sees the father doing. He also says that when you have seen the son, you have seen the father."

Jn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

I wrote: That is not what it says. The passage is about unity. Jesus gives two proofs of this unity. Jesus has authority from the Father to speak and the Father working through Him.

"That is not what it says." is not directed at scripture but your post. = Reading 101

It clearly distinguishes between the two. Yes, and they are both clearly distinguished.

And???
How would one prove unity if one cannot identify what is united.

A person is what is objectively presented to the world. The term comes from "persona" and is defined as "a mask; what is presented to the world". Jesus is what is presented to the world. He is the mask that must be removed to reveal the father. The father can never be objectively presented to the world except in, with, and through Christ.

Again do your homework, where in the text or immediate text does it state the above. You cannot read into the text what it does not say.

These are distinctions with no effective difference. I am not denying the fact that Christ is the very icon of God himself. He is God himself, but God is not what objectively exists. Idols objectively exist and are worshipped as gods. Paul refers to Christ as an icon which should never be conflated with an idol. Idols are worshipped as gods while icons are representations. By definition, representations or representatives are not what or who they represent.

Chapter, verse and your explanation.

However, when it comes to transcendence, only the icon actually exists. There is only God's persona, image, icon, mediator, door, window, way, truth, life, etc. God is the origin of all while Christ is the means. Apart from Christ, God doesn't exist. John doesn't begin his introduction with: "in the beginning was god" because God is the origin of existence itself while Christ is the means by which everything comes into creation. He is the means by which all are one within him.

Would of, could of, should of. John starts with "in the beginning was Logos", but notice who was with the Logos in the beginning = God. = ho theos= YHWH

This is only with respect to the Genitive case. With the Accusative case it denotes the place from which such action extends or is expressed. Regardless it denotes the means which should never be conflated with the origin. Christ is the foundation of reality. Christ is slaughtered from the foundation of the world. The world cannot come into existence without Christ emptying himself. Self sacrifice is what brings the world into existence. It is how Christ enters into the world. It is how Christ is seen in the world. No one can see Christ without self sacrifice.

The self, or persona or identity which we all present is nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind. It is a mask which must be removed in order to see clearly, not just who we really are, but who everyone else truly is.

Christ manifests the kingdom of God where there is no place to hide behind masks or separate identities. All are one in Christ who is the only true identity.

Until one can see that no matter how closely identification may be related to identity, identification is not identity. When one's identity is in Christ, "it is no longer I, but Christ in me...etc." as Paul points out.

Nice try. Note it is noun, genitive, singular. Therefore, according to you. The primary sense of ὑπόστασις substance is something which stands underneath is true.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

We know that Moses died and was buried, and yet he appeared in glory on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. How do you explain the word "glory" wrt Moses, and do the "Spirits" of the departed look like the individual or are they like ghosts? I do not believe in conscious immortal souls and immaterial spirits.

When he was a child he learnt wisdom Luke 2:40,52.

My fellowship and beliefs preceded the JWs and we disagree on many aspects especially as we believe that Jesus will return and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and will convert a significant remnant of the nation of Israel and submit and educate the nations. The JW worldview is the complete destruction of the nations, and the preservation of 144,000 in heaven and many more JWs on the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

I will gladly answer your questions when you show me the same curtesy and answer mine.

If Jesus was sustaining the universe when He purged our sins, [at His crucifixion and death], and the universe continued to exist and function for the next three days and nights; how did Jesus, who is just a man, sustain and uphold ALL THINGS when He [Jesus} was dead and buried?

Phil 2:6 If Jesus is a created man how was He able to consider anything before conception?

God Bless
TWM

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

If Jesus was sustaining the universe when He purged our sins, [at His crucifixion and death], and the universe continued to exist and function for the next three days and nights; how did Jesus, who is just a man, sustain and uphold ALL THINGS when He [Jesus} was dead and buried?

Your view of Jesus and his role is different to what I believe. I believe that the "all things" relates to his bearing of all aspects of his ministry and the overcoming of sin and its consequences in all its aspects and the future subjecting of the world under his control during the 1000 years and finally the abolition of death itself. His own death was an important part of this process. When an Angel appeared to him to strengthen him in the garden, Jesus did not say "I'm alright, but go to planet X and help Miss Marigold out of her dilemma". You have been watching too many episodes of Star Wars. I consider the concept behind your question is both fallacious and fictitious. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. Jesus increased in wisdom Luke 2:40,52.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

Your view of Jesus and his role is different to what I believe. I believe that the "all things" relates to his bearing of all aspects of his ministry and the overcoming of sin and its consequences in all its aspects and the future subjecting of the world under his control during the 1000 years and finally the abolition of death itself. His own death was an important part of this process. When an Angel appeared to him to strengthen him in the garden, Jesus did not say "I'm alright, but go to planet X and help Miss Marigold out of her dilemma". You have been watching too many episodes of Star Wars. I consider the concept behind your question is both fallacious and fictitious. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. Jesus increased in wisdom Luke 2:40,52.

Kind regards
Trevor

A Man AND The Son of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

A Man AND The Son of God.

Rather, a man, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yahweh will increase]

You are writing your belief into Scripture. Scripture does not support this, when in fact it disagrees with you. Nothing in Scripture hints that either Samuel, Moses, or Elijah were raised from the dead. The text is clear, the woman saw a spirit. Also nothing in the gospels hints that Moses and Elijah were raised from the dead. Also your idea does not follow the Biblical norm. Notice that in all the occasions when someone came back from the dead, it was their remains that was 'regenerated'. Either a dead body came back to life 1 King 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:18-37, 2 Kings 13:20–21, Luke 7:11–17, Luke 8:49–56, John 11:1-44, Acts 9:36-42, Acts 20:7–12
or the graves of the saints were opened, Mt. 27:50-54.
The more you write into scripture the more you deviate from the truth, and eventually you deviate so far that you create your own religion absent from The True God, and Jesus Christ.


Notice your MO. When you cannot answer the question you withdraw to changing the facts. Fact = I asked a question, [use of ?] you now argue its a statement. Why? It's answerable.
As to "two minds" that's a problem that non-trins have to deal with. As to Trinitarians we believe that Jesus has upheld, supported, and directed all of creation from its commencement to today.
Plus "and possibly surprises most Trinitarians" is a fallacy. = "No true Scotsman."

A true Christian has to be able to reconcile their beliefs with all of Scripture, logically and reasonably.
'... and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Either Hebrews is true or not. If not then how can we trust the Bible?

Back to two minds, we do not believe Jesus has two minds, but one. He is able to uphold the universe at all time because He is God
Phil 2 [which you also ignore] states that Jesus was equal with God in quality and quantity.
Equality translates from
isos Equal = 2470 ἴσος [isos /ee•sos/] adj. Probably from 1492 (through the idea of seeming); TDNT 3:343; TDNTA 370; GK 2698; Eight occurrences; AV translates as “equal” four times, “agree together + 2258” twice, “as much” once, and “like” once. 1 equal, in quantity or quality.

Jesus did not consider His equality with God when I took on flesh. Note 'robbery, grasp, use to his advantage translates from =

772 ἁρπαγμός (harpagmos), οῦ (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ Str 725; TDNT 1.473—1. LN 57.235 plunder, something taken by force (Php 2:6+), for another interp, see next; 2. LN 57.236 retain by force, here the focus is on the holding of something by force (Php 2:6+)Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. DBLG 772, #2

"robbery, grasp, use to his advantage" translates from harpagmos which is written as a noun not a verb. Equality with God was something that Jesus possessed and chose not to display while on earth. God is immutable, does not change, there is never a time when God is not God, and the same applies to Jesus. As God, Jesus was able to uphold the universe before, and after the incarnation.


This leans towards the Jehovah's Witness worldview. The above is not supported by Scripture, plus the verses you cited does not support you main ideas but agrees with titles you used ie, 'son of man, new Adam, Lord of Heaven and Earth.'

So I will ask you again, since you have not answered.

If Jesus was sustaining the universe when He purged our sins, [at His crucifixion and death], and the universe continued to exist and function for the next three days and nights; how did Jesus, who is just a man, sustain and uphold ALL THINGS when He [Jesus} was dead and buried?

Phil 2:6 If Jesus is a created man how was He able to consider anything before conception?

God Bless
TWM

Your ideas about Saul seeing Samuel are all false, for first off, the woman was deceived and therefore what she thinks she saw is irrelevant, then secondly, notice where Samuel came from, for he came up from the earth and not down from heaven and she apparently screamed because what she saw was not the usual for a medium.

Oh and by the way, the word for "spirit" does not exist in the text but in verse 13 the word that is falsely translated as "spirit" is the word "elohim" and isn't that interesting?

This was indeed a temporary bodily resurrection where God restored Samuels spirit into his body for the purpose of appearing to Saul and pronouncing a judgment upon him through Samuel.

For there was no permanent resurrection from the dead yet for either body or spirit until Jesus fulfilled God's law in sinless perfection and then died and rose again for our sins and he made this very clear to Nicodemus also.

Search the OT as you will and you will not find a single proof that God created man with a ready made eternal spirit, for the breath of life only refers to a temporary breath of life from the Holy Spirit of God, but for one to have Eternal life, God would have to dwell within them permanently and until Jesus died on the cross for the sins of men, this was impossible.

Therefore neither Adam nor any of his descendants had an eternal spirit as trins falsely believe.

Then concerning the Transfiguration, God very apparently gave the apostles a glimpse into the future from his own perfect foreknowledge when after the resurrection from the dead, Jesus would speak with Moses and Elijah in his Eternal Kingdom.

So then they caught a glimpse into the future after the end of the age of Jesus, Moses and Elijah conversing in the Eternal Kingdom.

The purpose for this no doubt was to reveal to the three disciples that the law and the prophets were in perfect agreement with who Jesus was and that he was who they spoke of and wrote about.

For Moses represented the law and Elijah the prophets.

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

Rather, a man, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Rather BOTH.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

Rather BOTH.

Jesus is a human, the Son of God because God is his father and Jesus is his son:
Luke 1:34-35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Galatians 4:4 (KJV): But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

Jesus is a human, the Son of God because God is his father and Jesus is his son:
Luke 1:34-35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Galatians 4:4 (KJV): But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Kind regards
Trevor

There is NO human Son of God.
Yep, God sent forth His Divine Son, to be born of a woman.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

There is NO human Son of God.

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV): 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mary was his mother, and God his father.

Yep, God sent forth His Divine Son, to be born of a woman.

There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God by birth, by character and by the resurrection from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV): 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mary was his mother, and God his father.

There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God by birth, by character and by the resurrection from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

And Jesus Christ is The Son of God eternally begotten of The Father.
NOTHING to do with His birth, character, or resurrection.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

And Jesus Christ is The Son of God eternally begotten of The Father.

The term "eternally begotten" appears to me to be contradictory. My impression of "begotten" implies that you get or obtain something that you did not have before. Adding the term "eternally" seems to negate this term. Could you give a brief summary of this term?

NOTHING to do with His birth, character, or resurrection.

The following are a number of passages where Jesus addresses God as Father, and there does not seem to be any hint that the relationship between Jesus as the Son of God and God his father is based on the concept that Jesus was "eternally begotten".

Matthew 11:25–27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
When was the "All things delivered" to Jesus, from eternity? Has Jesus possessed these "all things" from eternity, and how do you explain the term "delivered"? The above passage also gives some indication of the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God and especially the superior position of God the Father..

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Here we have Jesus in distress as he anticipated his coming rejection and suffering. This shows his dependence on his Father for comfort and help.

Mark 14:32–36 (KJV): 32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Again, similar to the previous passage, Jesus is in distress, especially as the time of his arrest and suffering was approaching. This passage shows the resignation of Jesus in humility and his submission of the will of Jesus to the will of his Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

The term "eternally begotten" appears to me to be contradictory. My impression of "begotten" implies that you get or obtain something that you did not have before. Adding the term "eternally" seems to negate this term. Could you give a brief summary of this term?

The following are a number of passages where Jesus addresses God as Father, and there does not seem to be any hint that the relationship between Jesus as the Son of God and God his father is based on the concept that Jesus was "eternally begotten".

Matthew 11:25–27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
When was the "All things delivered" to Jesus, from eternity? Has Jesus possessed these "all things" from eternity, and how do you explain the term "delivered"? The above passage also gives some indication of the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God and especially the superior position of God the Father..

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Here we have Jesus in distress as he anticipated his coming rejection and suffering. This shows his dependence on his Father for comfort and help.

Mark 14:32–36 (KJV): 32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Again, similar to the previous passage, Jesus is in distress, especially as the time of his arrest and suffering was approaching. This passage shows the resignation of Jesus in humility and his submission of the will of Jesus to the will of his Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

John 1:14; 3:13 amply demonstrate Jesus Christ is begotten of The Father.
NO superior position of The Father.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

John 1:14; 3:13 amply demonstrate Jesus Christ is begotten of The Father.
NO superior position of The Father.

I understand "begotten" in John 1:14 relates to the conception and birth of Jesus. I was interested in other passages where "Abba, Father" occur and both of these seem to be patterned off Jesus:
Romans 8:10-16 (KJV): 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Galatians 4:4–7 (KJV): 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
This pattern and relationship of Jesus to his father is connected to the fact that God the Father is the father of Jesus and also relates to the sufferings of Jesus, not to "eternally begotten".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

I understand "begotten" in John 1:14 relates to the conception and birth of Jesus. I was interested in other passages where "Abba, Father" occur and both of these seem to be patterned off Jesus:
Romans 8:10-16 (KJV): 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Galatians 4:4–7 (KJV): 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
This pattern and relationship of Jesus to his father is connected to the fact that God the Father is the father of Jesus and also relates to the sufferings of Jesus, not to "eternally begotten".

Kind regards
Trevor

The conception of The MAN Jesus was by The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.
The Son is begotten of The Father, NOT conceived by or born of The Father.

 

[Yahchristian]

The conception of The MAN Jesus was by The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.
The Son is begotten of The Father, NOT conceived by or born of The Father.

Just to clarify...

What do you see as the difference between “begotten” and “conceived by or born of”?

...since dictionaries do not show a difference.

And if “The conception of The MAN Jesus was by The Holy Spirit”...

Is the Holy Spirit the father of the MAN Jesus?

*Notice I used a lower case f in father.

 

[shnarkle]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

The term "eternally begotten" appears to me to be contradictory. My impression of "begotten" implies that you get or obtain something that you did not have before.

This would be the case with the flesh. With the Spirit, God is the eternal father. God does not become a father in time.

Adding the term "eternally" seems to negate this term. Could you give a brief summary of this term?

The process of begetting is eternal.

The following are a number of passages where Jesus addresses God as Father, and there does not seem to be any hint that the relationship between Jesus as the Son of God and God his father is based on the concept that Jesus was "eternally begotten".

Matthew 11:25–27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
When was the "All things delivered" to Jesus, from eternity? Has Jesus possessed these "all things" from eternity, and how do you explain the term "delivered"? The above passage also gives some indication of the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God and especially the superior position of God the Father..

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Here we have Jesus in distress as he anticipated his coming rejection and suffering. This shows his dependence on his Father for comfort and help.

Mark 14:32–36 (KJV): 32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Again, similar to the previous passage, Jesus is in distress, especially as the time of his arrest and suffering was approaching. This passage shows the resignation of Jesus in humility and his submission of the will of Jesus to the will of his Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

While it may not be something that most readers might see, the father is impotent to do what only the son can accomplish. The father can only glorify the son while the son can only glorify the father. This son IS the glory of the father. Without the Son, the Father cannot be glorified.

 

[johnny guitar]

Just to clarify...

What do you see as the difference between “begotten” and “conceived by or born of”?

...since dictionaries do not show a difference.

And if “The conception of The MAN Jesus was by The Holy Spirit”...

Is the Holy Spirit the father of the MAN Jesus?

*Notice I used a lower case f in father.

The Holy Spirit is NEVER called The Father of Jesus Christ, The Son.
A baby is FIRST conceived, LATER He is BORN.
Conceived is used in reference to men; Begotten to God.