What is Faith?

The claim of naturalism/materialism/physicalism is that thoughts are a very particular kind of result of a very particular set of non-rational causes, namely those that take place in brains; that those causes have combined to generate (in ways we do not understand) the capacity for thought. And with the capacity for thought -- at least, with the capacity present in us humans -- the capacity for rational thought inevitably follows. If I'm capable of thinking about numbers, I'm capable of knowing what the right answers are to arithmetic questions. If I'm capable of thinking about what walls are, then I'm capable of knowing that I can't pass through them.

The question of how a brain can give us the ability to think, or even just to feel pleasure or pain, is a huge mystery, but if it does, then there is no additional problem in saying it gives us the ability to think well, and to come to generally reliable conclusions about which arguments are valid and which aren't, or which obstacles are passable and which aren't.

I think all the above is true whether we possess free will or not.

Imagine a creature whose entire life is confined to the inside of the hood of an automobile. He notices that every time his world, i.e. the car becomes mobile, he can see gasoline being squirted through the fuel lines which cause the pistons to move through the cylinders which in turn moves the drive shaft, which in turn, etc, etc. As a strict materialist this creature under the hood concludes that the whole process is set in motion by a chain of events
similar to how materialists in our more cosmological world attribute the ultimate cause of rational thought to be the firing of neurons through synapses.
That's because he cannot see the free will act of a foot INSIDE the car pressing on a pedal, hidden as it is from him.

There is an unseen realm.
 
Imagine a creature whose entire life is confined to the inside of the hood of an automobile. He notices that every time his world, i.e. the car becomes mobile, he can see gasoline being squirted through the fuel lines which cause the pistons to move through the cylinders which in turn moves the drive shaft, which in turn, etc, etc. As a strict materialist this creature under the hood concludes that the whole process is set in motion by a chain of events
similar to how materialists in our more cosmological world attribute the ultimate cause of rational thought to be the firing of neurons through synapses.
That's because he cannot see the free will act of a foot INSIDE the car pressing on a pedal, hidden as it is from him.

There is an unseen realm.
So given your analogy we are merely observers of God's will with little impact to the functions we observe. God created the functions and runs them from the cockpit. So when certain cars crash and burn it certainly is the direct result of the free will act of the "God" driver and not the will of the hapless "observer" under the hood.

Thank you for settling this long term argument concerning God's culpability, as well as our innocence, for the calamity we experience in this world with these silly analogies.
 
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Because you would be wasting your time debating with people when you know that everything is predetermined no matter what you say.
But your actions would help define what would happen deterministically. It would be true for some cases that, if a person did A after talking with you, they would have done B had you not talked with them, all of which could happen deterministically.

Also, if we have no free will then why do you think it is ok to punish people for crimes when they are not responsible?
There are several reasons for a criminal justice system besides punitive punishment: deterrence, removing the offender from society for the safety of society, rehabilitation, etc.

Without free will there is no such thing as morality, crimes, or science. So why keep talking about such things?
I've just indicated that there would be reason for society to define what is a crime above if there was no free will. You will have to provide some reason why you think that there is no morality or science without free will.
 
So given your analogy we are merely observers of God's will with little impact to the functions we observe.

Wrong. We have free will, just like God. Since you blew that, I will delete the idiotic drivel that follows, based as it is upon your idiotic premise.
 
Wrong. We have free will, just like God. Since you blew that, I will delete the idiotic drivel that follows, based as it is upon your idiotic premise.
It was your premise to put us under the hood simply observing the mechanics instigated by another's will.
 
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Correct, Cap'n Obvious.
Well, as usual with you, it was stupid given what Christians believe concerning free will. Your analogy is that we observe our own mechanical functions as set in motion by an unseen driver, so if we careen into a wall as a result of what we observe, its the driver's fault.
 
Well, as usual with you, it was stupid given what Christians believe concerning free will. Your analogy is that we observe our own mechanical functions as set in motion by an unseen driver, so if we careen into a wall as a result of what we observe, its the driver's fault.

Fault? Who said anything about fault, Pharisee? We're talking abut cause. Pay attention. and stop being so stupid.
 
Imagine a creature whose entire life is confined to the inside of the hood of an automobile. He notices that every time his world, i.e. the car becomes mobile, he can see gasoline being squirted through the fuel lines which cause the pistons to move through the cylinders which in turn moves the drive shaft, which in turn, etc, etc. As a strict materialist this creature under the hood concludes that the whole process is set in motion by a chain of events
similar to how materialists in our more cosmological world attribute the ultimate cause of rational thought to be the firing of neurons through synapses.
That's because he cannot see the free will act of a foot INSIDE the car pressing on a pedal, hidden as it is from him.

There is an unseen realm.
If human decisions are not the result of a chain of previous causes, then determinism is false. I have no problem agreeing to that, even without the allegory to illustrate it.
 
How do you determine what things are not possible?
You explore if they are possible, and when you continually find that your explorations come up empty, you conclude that they are not possible.
How do you explore events in the past?
Now, it might always be possible to find a black swan, but, it's still rational to make a conclusion based on the evidence you have.
There are black swans. They do exist.

El Cid said:
No, it applies to any system like math and reasoning. Physicist David Wolpert said Godels theorem shows that "the entire physical universe cannot be fully understood by any single inference system that exists within it." IOW, you must go outside it.
One physicist saying something doesn't mean much. Is his conclusion generally accepted by physicists? If so, do you have a citation?
Many physicists accept his conclusion. I dont know if it qualifies as generally. But well known and respected physicists do, like Wolpert and Stanley Jaki, and Douglas Hofstadler.
El Cid said:
While mainstream cosmology of course, will not acknowledge that. There are cosmologists that do say it points in that direction. Paul Davies, Keith Ward, Arno Penzias, and Hugh Ross to name a few.
That is a claim independent and separate from whether the supernatural exists, so can you now support this new claim? That modern cosmology *does not* recognize the supernatural does not mean that it *will* not.
It is unlikely that it will if they are not open to it and the mainstream academia does not appear to be.
El Cid said:
No, all the reports I have seen from the experts say either they actually are violating the laws of physics or they are appearing to.
I think you mean, "Yes, but all the reports . . . ." but in any event, moving on: so if I do a web search about that specific UFO incident I should find *no* expert who challenges the conclusion that something has violating the laws of physics? OK . . . .
El Cid said:
Well we can also call it suspensions of the laws of physics. If the laws of physics appear to be violated or suspended, that is evidence that the event may be supernatural. I am not saying it proves it, but it is evidence.
A few issues here: (1) if something "appears" to indicate X, we don't say that it is evidence for X. In order to be evidence for X, it needs to *actually* indicate X;
Actually we do. For many years scientists were seeing things that appear to point toward the existence of black holes, and then they said these sightings were evidence for black holes and then we discovered that black holes actually exist. So this is the standard way science works. So there is evidence for supernatural because we are seeing things that appear to behave as a supernatural event would behave, therefore this is evidence for the supernatural.
(2) I suppose there are certain laws of physics that, if violated, it would be useful to label that "supernatural," like, if something could be in two places at once, or travel fast than light, etc. I think. (3) I acknowledge your proper hesitancy to move from any evidence at all to accepting a claim. Some evidence may not be sufficient, so any one piece of evidence may not prove something. I agree.
UFOs travel faster than it is possible for physical objects to travel in an atmosphere and at the point that time > 0 the BB goes against all known laws of physics. In addition, there is strong historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ which also of course violates the laws of physics.
 
As an atheist, how do you know how a deity should answer prayer?
If a Christian prays for their headache to go away, and it goes away, did Yahweh grant the prayer?
If a Muslim prays for their headache to go away, and it goes away, did Allah grant the prayer?

If a Christian prays for their headache to go away, and takes a paracetamol, and the headache goes away, did Yahweh grant the prayer?
 
the BB goes against all known laws of physics. In addition, there is strong historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ which also of course violates the laws of physics.
This is a very loose connection. If the BB goes against all known laws of physics, that doesn't entail that all events that supposedly break the laws of physics actually happened. Besides, going against all known laws of physics isn't necessarily going against the laws of physics, as the known laws of physics may not be able to describe the universe at the point of expansion.
 
This is a very loose connection. If the BB goes against all known laws of physics, that doesn't entail that all events that supposedly break the laws of physics actually happened. Besides, going against all known laws of physics isn't necessarily going against the laws of physics, as the known laws of physics may not be able to describe the universe at the point of expansion.
Saying that the Big Bang "goes against the laws of physics" is like saying that

"It was the best of times; it was the worst of times."

goes against the plot of A Tale of Two Cities.
 
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How do you explore events in the past?
What does this have to do with what we were talking about? I'm not against answering this question, but could you either make plain its relevance, or, better still, make the point that lies behind the question? Because I don't get where we're going with this.

There are black swans. They do exist.
I know. That doesn't change my point.

Many physicists accept his conclusion. I dont know if it qualifies as generally. But well known and respected physicists do, like Wolpert and Stanley Jaki, and Douglas Hofstadler.
That's great, too. There can be some physicists who hold theories that haven't been proven, or at least accepted by cosmology in general. Investigate and explore away! Let me know when it cosmology accepts this theory. That's how science works.

It is unlikely that it will if they are not open to it and the mainstream academia does not appear to be.
Now you have another claim that you need to support, the claim that they are not open to it. Also, any evidence for this claim has to be distinguished from evidence that would merely show that cosmology has undertaken a fair evaluation of the theory and has rejected it.

That article does not support your original claim about UFOs:
Sara Seager, an astrophysicist at M.I.T., cautioned that not knowing the origin of an object does not mean that it is from another planet or galaxy. “When people claim to observe truly unusual phenomena, sometimes it’s worth investigating seriously,” she said. But, she added, “what people sometimes don’t get about science is that we often have phenomena that remain unexplained.”
James E. Oberg, a former NASA space shuttle engineer and the author of 10 books on spaceflight who often debunks U.F.O. sightings, was also doubtful. “There are plenty of prosaic events and human perceptual traits that can account for these stories,”
I'm all for studying and investigating weird phenomenon. But this NYT article you linked to certainly didn't show "empirical observations by scientists of some UFOs plainly violating the laws of physics." A report of an observation by Navy pilots, for instance, is not scientists saying that the laws of physics have been violated. And, even if a scientist could be produced who said that, even that doesn't matter, because **science** has to acknowledge the violation of the laws of physics, not an individual scientist or a group of scientists. That's how science works, and there are good reasons why it has to work that way.

Actually we do. For many years scientists were seeing things that appear to point toward the existence of black holes, and then they said these sightings were evidence for black holes and then we discovered that black holes actually exist. So this is the standard way science works. So there is evidence for supernatural because we are seeing things that appear to behave as a supernatural event would behave, therefore this is evidence for the supernatural.
Something "appearing" to be evidence for a claim might well be evidence for the claim, or it might not be. We can conclude nothing from something "appearing" to , for instance, support the existence of black holes. Once further evidence is gathered, it's the totality of the evidence that shows that black holes exist. Before that, all you have is something that **might** indicate some phenomenon.

UFOs travel faster than it is possible for physical objects to travel in an atmosphere and at the point that time > 0 the BB goes against all known laws of physics.
AFAIK, we have **reports** that this has happened, but those reports have not been confirmed to actually be what they purport to be. Until we get actual confirmation, all we have is an area of research, not a conclusion.

In addition, there is strong historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ which also of course violates the laws of physics.
We've got enough on our plate with cosmology and UFOs, forgive me if I decline to get into the resurrection.
 
If you say "this healing was supernatural", you have explained it.

"Unexplained" means "I don't know" - you can't say whether or not it was supernatural.
I believe the evidence points to them being supernatural though of course, the official reports say unexplained.
 
If you say "this healing was supernatural", you have explained it.

"Unexplained" means "I don't know" - you can't say whether or not it was supernatural.
I believe the evidence points to them being supernatural though of course, the official reports say unexplained.
 
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