Witnessing To A Roman Catholic . . . . .

romishpopishorganist said:
When fundamentalists say "Priests are going to Hell" that is a judgement on the priest, not the false beliefs.
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You priests teach false gospels, salvation by works, your priests claim to be "alter christus'" acting in "persona christi"and by doing so imply that Jesus would condone the molestation of children, lying to authorities to cover up those crimes, obstructing justice, moving offending priests to unsuspecting churches to avoid prosecution, they offer up a false sacrifice to God, they deny the sufficiency of the cross, and make the traditions of your religion greater than that of His Word. They have a lot to answer for.
BTW, I have tried to remember to qualify this by saying "if you do not repent of your sins" I have not always done this and I will try to do better.
romishpopishorganist said:
For example: I condemn abortion---not people who have had one. Judgement of the PERSON is up to God. I judge acts, not people.

Who usurps the titles of the Holy Trinity?
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Pompous maximus
romishpopishorganist said:
You think I have never thought of Hell? I have. But my motivation for worshipping Jesus is that he is worthy of worship. My motivation for worshipping God is love--not after life insurance. God is worthy of love and worship--whether or not I am saved. If I were to be in Hell, God would still be worthy of love and worthy of worship. God would still be holy, good and just.
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And yet you would turn your back on Him
romishpopishorganist said:
When you encounter Jesus, you cannot but help worship Him and love Him. Once you encounter Jesus, you realize HE is the reason for everything. Hell really doesn't figure into to it--that is to say--you are so overcome with his glory you just don't think about anything else because it does not matter.
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Actually , i believe that you are grossly understating this. Then again, everyone would do the same
romishpopishorganist said:
What is Hell? What difference does it make? Jesus is all that matters. That hymn "Turn your eyes upon Jesus..and the things of earth will grow faintly dim, in the light of His glory and love." Well--those ain't just pious words. They are true, more true than anyone realizes.
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This is very true in every sense of the word.
romishpopishorganist said:
You can't walk the walk without Faith.
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Very true.
romishpopishorganist said:
Right--yeah---Mary worship. And Sola Scriptura means we aren't allow to have ANY tradition
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Once again you show that you do not understand the. concept of Sola Scriptura.
romishpopishorganist said:
, and it also denies the authority of the Church and general revelation too.
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No, just the false self proclaimed authority of rome. Devine r.evelation stopped when the Book of Revelation was written. Thanks for admitting that your traditions are false and not of God.
romishpopishorganist said:
Yeah--I can falsely caricaturize your beliefs as good as you can mine.
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You do it all of the time anyway. I am used to it.
romishpopishorganist said:
You know--if you were a real Christian, you know what you would NOT do? You would not continue to falsely caricaturize Catholicism for the sake of the Gospel. You see, the Gospel speaks for itself. It does not need you to distort the teachings of Catholicism in order to assist it.
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Says someone who cannot defend what he believes. Every single characteristic of rc'ism that has been posted here on Carm is true. Being a real Christian means that I will stand up and defend the truth of God's word. The same words that you reject.
romishpopishorganist said:
Christianity is about a way of life-----not rewards and punishments. Not that I deny Hell. I believe it exists, and I believe it is a real possibility for people. My point---is that----Christianity is about Jesus. God is not a divine Santa Clause who knows when we are naughty and nice, gives us lumps of coal when we are bad and presents when we are good.
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It is too bad that the rcc subjugates Jesus to Mary
romishpopishorganist said:
The way you fundamentalists present the Gospel, it is no wonder atheists make fun of us. and think we are all idiots.
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Nope. Only some of us. What you seem to forget is Jesus called out the Pharisees, Saducees, and scribes all of the time. Why do you think that they wanted to kill Him. Because He upset the apple cart.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
When fundamentalists say "Priests are going to Hell" that is a judgement on the priest, not the false beliefs.

For example: I condemn abortion---not people who have had one. Judgement of the PERSON is up to God. I judge acts, not people.

Who usurps the titles of the Holy Trinity?

You think I have never thought of Hell? I have. But my motivation for worshipping Jesus is that he is worthy of worship. My motivation for worshipping God is love--not after life insurance. God is worthy of love and worship--whether or not I am saved. If I were to be in Hell, God would still be worthy of love and worthy of worship. God would still be holy, good and just.

When you encounter Jesus, you cannot but help worship Him and love Him. Once you encounter Jesus, you realize HE is the reason for everything. Hell really doesn't figure into to it--that is to say--you are so overcome with his glory you just don't think about anything else because it does not matter. What is Hell? What difference does it make? Jesus is all that matters. That hymn "Turn your eyes upon Jesus..and the things of earth will grow faintly dim, in the light of His glory and love." Well--those ain't just pious words. They are true, more true than anyone realizes.

You can't walk the walk without Faith.

Right--yeah---Mary worship. And Sola Scriptura means we aren't allow to have ANY tradition, and it also denies the authority of the Church and general revelation too.

Yeah--I can falsely caricaturize your beliefs as good as you can mine.

You know--if you were a real Christian, you know what you would NOT do? You would not continue to falsely caricaturize Catholicism for the sake of the Gospel. You see, the Gospel speaks for itself. It does not need you to distort the teachings of Catholicism in order to assist it.

Christianity is about a way of life-----not rewards and punishments. Not that I deny Hell. I believe it exists, and I believe it is a real possibility for people. My point---is that----Christianity is about Jesus. God is not a divine Santa Clause who knows when we are naughty and nice, gives us lumps of coal when we are bad and presents when we are good. The way you fundamentalists present the Gospel, it is no wonder atheists make fun of us. and think we are all idiots.
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I have not read one post where anyone has said a priest is going to hell. Please link otherwise stop making false claims. Their actions clearly show they are not saved and are evil and need salvation and no one knows where one person is going to after they die.

But we are to judge, discern and test and it is clear from 1 Cor 5:11 that those who are committing certain sins are to be isolated from the body which your institution ignores and justifies not doing. It still is not judging where they will need up. No one knows what will happen at the point of death. But to excuse those people and to allow them to retain titles and privileges is clearly against scripture. Yet your institution justifies its actions by pointing to Judas etc.

You seem to be of the opinion that two wrongs make a right which is not the case.

When saying RCs worship Mary it is not a caricature at all. It is fact. It looks like worship and therefore it is. Name one apostle who prayed to Mary after she died, one apostle who preached Mary, one apostle who bowed down before statues of her, one apostle who witnessed her floating into the heavens, one apostles who called her co anything at all. In fact she is barely mentioned in scriptures at all, and not after Pentecost.
 
balshan said:
When saying RCs worship Mary it is not a caricature at all. It is fact. It looks like worship and therefore it is.
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No, it IS a caricature. You say "It looks like worship, it must be worship." I say--worship by WHOSE standards? If you want to judge whether Catholics worship Mary and the saints, you judge what it is to worship not by fundamentalist standards but by Catholic standards.

Consider: What does it mean to worship in Pastor Bob's First Church of the Bible and nothing but the Bible? Well, you gather, sing hymns, hear Bible readings, a good "Bible" teacher sermon usually on Romans or getting saved, prayer, maybe a testimony or two, more prayer, a final hymn and then see you Wednesday evening. Note: what Pastor Bob and his Bible friends do is very similar to what Catholics do too---when having DEVOTIONS. It is little wonder, then, that the fundamentalist concludes that Catholics are worshipping Mary when they have devotions. Catholic devotions parallel what fundamentalists do in their Sunday and Wednesday worship.

For Catholics, real worship is the MASS. Protestants have no equivalent in their worship. Catholics offer the Mass to none but God. Thus, as the Mass is never offered TO Mary or TO the saints, or anyone but God, Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints.
balshan said:
Name one apostle who prayed to Mary after she died, one apostle who preached Mary, one apostle who bowed down before statues of her, one apostle who witnessed her floating into the heavens, one apostles who called her co anything at all.
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There is nothing explicitly recorded in the Scriptures where apostles tell us to pray to Mary. There were certainly no statues of Mary in the apostolic Church. Mary's Assumption into heaven was not witnessed, or if it was witnessed, no one wrote about it in the Scriptures.

So what? The Church testifies to these doctrines in her teaching and Tradition. I accept the testimony of the Church.

Expecting Scripture to formally and explicitly teach the doctrines about Mary is like reading the works of Sir Isaac Newton and wondering why he had nothing to say about the Theory of Relativity. It is like reading the US Constitution and asking why it has nothing to say about the president's mansion or the Whitehouse. It is like reading the Constitution and asking "Where does the Constitution say that the seat of the US government is to be Washington D.C?" It is like asking "Where did the founding fathers of the US teach the need for a West Wing?"

The Bible and Apostolic teaching gives the framework or blueprints of Christian doctrine. The Bible and Apostolic teaching gives us a foundation of doctrine, the principles upon which doctrine is to be formed. The Bible however is NOT an exhaustive text book of doctrine in and of itself. This is something fundamentalists fail to grasp.
balshan said:
In fact she is barely mentioned in scriptures at all, and not after Pentecost.
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Correct: Mary is barely mentioned in Scripture.

So what? Quantity has nothing to do with anything. What matters is WHAT is there, not how much of it is there.

Where does the Bible teach us--how many verses one needs to prove a doctrine?
 
RayneBeau said:
As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word, does witnessing to a Roman Catholic usually go something like this: ? . . . . . . .

Q. The evangelist asks the Roman Catholic; "Sir, what do you believe?"

A. The Roman Catholic responds saying; "I believe what my church believes."

Q. "And what does your church believe sir? the evangelist politely asks.

A. "My church believes what I believe," is the Roman Catholic response.

Q. "But what do you both believe?" asked the evangelist, trying to press the Roman Catholic for a decision.

A. "Why, we both believe the same thing!"
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I attended a bible school with a Catholic, we met after hours for lunch and discussion, just always focused on what the bible taught on main doctrines, did not "bash" rome, and he came back to school in the fall, and went from lost Catholic to saved Baptist, as the Holy Spirit kept bugging him about how Rome viewed scriptures!
 
Misfit said:
It could be construed as worshipping the Bible by non-Fundamentalist Christians, could it not?
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Well if you take rpo's false test maybe. But I don't know of any bob's church of the bible and only the bible. If you want to misrepresent what others believe then sure that's easy enough to do. The fact is no one bows to the bible or kisses the bible or prays to the bible. All things Catholics do to your Marian statues. That is certainly the appearance of worship.
 
Bonnie said:
Jesus did not establish the RCC church. That is a lie your church perpetuates, in its pride and arrogance. It ceased being His church centuries ago, when it began to pervert the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Well if that happened then Jesus' words did not hold true:

Matthew 16: 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Okay, please show me this commission. Show me where Jesus specifically commissioned you to teach and preach.

Yes you can preach the Gospel. I am not asking about preaching the Gospel. All Christians may do that. I am asking about your commission to teach and preach.
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I thought God does the commissioning. Mark 16:17-20 King James Version (KJV) 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
 
SPOKENWORD said:
I thought God does the commissioning. Mark 16:17-20 King James Version (KJV) 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
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He does, through the apostles and their successors.

Please show me your commission.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
No, it IS a caricature. You say "It looks like worship, it must be worship." I say--worship by WHOSE standards? If you want to judge whether Catholics worship Mary and the saints, you judge what it is to worship not by fundamentalist standards but by Catholic standards.

Consider: What does it mean to worship in Pastor Bob's First Church of the Bible and nothing but the Bible? Well, you gather, sing hymns, hear Bible readings, a good "Bible" teacher sermon usually on Romans or getting saved, prayer, maybe a testimony or two, more prayer, a final hymn and then see you Wednesday evening. Note: what Pastor Bob and his Bible friends do is very similar to what Catholics do too---when having DEVOTIONS. It is little wonder, then, that the fundamentalist concludes that Catholics are worshipping Mary when they have devotions. Catholic devotions parallel what fundamentalists do in their Sunday and Wednesday worship.

For Catholics, real worship is the MASS. Protestants have no equivalent in their worship. Catholics offer the Mass to none but God. Thus, as the Mass is never offered TO Mary or TO the saints, or anyone but God, Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints.

There is nothing explicitly recorded in the Scriptures where apostles tell us to pray to Mary. There were certainly no statues of Mary in the apostolic Church. Mary's Assumption into heaven was not witnessed, or if it was witnessed, no one wrote about it in the Scriptures.

So what? The Church testifies to these doctrines in her teaching and Tradition. I accept the testimony of the Church.

Expecting Scripture to formally and explicitly teach the doctrines about Mary is like reading the works of Sir Isaac Newton and wondering why he had nothing to say about the Theory of Relativity. It is like reading the US Constitution and asking why it has nothing to say about the president's mansion or the Whitehouse. It is like reading the Constitution and asking "Where does the Constitution say that the seat of the US government is to be Washington D.C?" It is like asking "Where did the founding fathers of the US teach the need for a West Wing?"

The Bible and Apostolic teaching gives the framework or blueprints of Christian doctrine. The Bible and Apostolic teaching gives us a foundation of doctrine, the principles upon which doctrine is to be formed. The Bible however is NOT an exhaustive text book of doctrine in and of itself. This is something fundamentalists fail to grasp.

Correct: Mary is barely mentioned in Scripture.

So what? Quantity has nothing to do with anything. What matters is WHAT is there, not how much of it is there.

Where does the Bible teach us--how many verses one needs to prove a doctrine?
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Once again proving RCs do not know how to worship the Lord. No surprise at all. If you are a believer then everything you do should be a form of worship.

Rom 12

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Cor 14:40

But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

1 Cor 10:31

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Matt 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

This last verse proves one should not be giving glory to Mary and to our Father, this is were all good works by all believers should lead people. It is all about giving glory to the Father.

Scripture gives more than a framework, so much more than a framework, for Christian living. Once again you are demonstrating the belittling of scripture by RCs. It is how we are to live, full stop.

What matters is what is written about Mary in scripture, not the myths, the RCC has added to the writings. The real Mary would be appalled by how she is worshipped and displayed in the RCC. The real Mary was humble and a humble person does not want the unwanted attention of others. She wants people to follow her son, not her. She wants people to talk about her son, not her.

I never said anything at all about the number of verses. But it is what the verses say that is important and none of them tell us to pray to Mary, worship Mary or to make statues of Mary. NONE. Not one.

By the way RCs don't know what real worship is and there traditions are built on lies and are not facts or truth. Anything that is not of God should be rejected and the worship of Mary is not off God. If it was it would be in His word. His word is about the things of God and not man.
 
Nondenom40 said:
All things Catholics do to your Marian statues
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Misfit said:
I have never witnessed such a thing in any of the parishes I have been in for over 50 years. Not once!
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no statues of Mary with candles in front of it? no kneeler in front of it for someone to kneel before it in prayer to her? no May celebrations that includes the statue of her, a crown on her head and flowers at her feet? a parade with catholics carrying the statue?
 
pilgrim said:
Well if that happened then Jesus' words did not hold true:

Matthew 16: 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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No, what is NOT true is Rome's misinterpretation of this verse, in order to make it appear that Jesus would build His church on a mere, sinful human being, and not upon Himself, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and the Rock of our salvation. One would need to be willfully blind, to keep from seeing that the Greek word "rock" here is feminine, "petra" and means a huge, rocky cliff or massif--think El Capitain in Yosemite National Park--vs. the word used of Peter, "petros", which is masculine and means a chunk of rock. Catholics must further blind themselves to the fact that "petra" rock here is the same word for "rock" that Paul used when he wrote "...and that Rock was Christ" in 1 Cor. 10:4.

Refusing to believe that Peter is the "rock' that Jesus would build His church on has nothing to do with the gates of hell not prevailing against it. We know if never has. God always keeps a remnant for Himself. The church is the rule of Jesus Christ in the heart of every true believer, who believes that Jesus Christ is his Lord and God and Savior, and trusts in Him only for salvation, great and free, and not in himself or any works he may do.
 
Misfit said:
It could be construed as worshipping the Bible by non-Fundamentalist Christians, could it not?
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No, it could be construed that they only use the Bible for their beliefs. But those of us who are sola scriptura do not worship the Bible, bow down to it, burn candles to it, or pray to it. It is indeed God's holy and inerrant word, and we have the highest regard for it, but we do not worship it.
 
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