Okay, since you seem to have problems understanding, let's use reading comprehension to figure out the topic, the main message of the verse. "You [we have to have a subject], when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of your inheritance until you take possession of it." (Verse 14 is paraphrased, but so was 13...)Army
If you really need help with this, lets cut up the verse a little, since there are a bunch of phrases. In him you also believed in him. In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. You understand that because the verse starts with "in him you also" left out a lot of context. (See what I did there.) It includes everything that comes before this verse, which you don't want to deal with.
You still have not addressed the question
What does it take
to get you to address this?
When are people in Christ according verse 13
As you can see, as I worded it, it becomes immediately clear that this verse cannot and does not answer the question "when are people in Christ". If it did, the verse would not make sense the way I worded it. However, it makes perfect sense. Now, if you to really not like what that means, the descriptor of the subject is that the subject is in Christ already. To reword it "You while in Christ also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,". You set yourself up.
If you want the true answer, they are in Christ for the whole verse, because that is how Paul started the verse, when you stop butchering God's Holy Word. You do understand that the actual question to ask is "what does it mean"? However, you have decided to wield you beliefs, which you are unwilling to even let God change, as a cleaver to butcher God's word. You do realize that you show that you have problems when you can't even get to the point of asking "what does it mean", right? That's the question I have, when I go to God and go over what I know in light of God. It isn't, that's wrong, it is "what does it mean", and "what effect does that have on God", and "what effect does it have on scripture". I have not had any problem lining my understanding with the context of scripture. Some things are changed a little when new information comes to light, but it has not ever changed my foundational understanding.Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
where is the answer
The only help I appear to need here is to get to actually address what was asked
So the reason why it says "in Christ" in Ephesians 1 it is because God does not see that? Got it.The term is in Christ
not ones eternal standing not when God sees
Eisegesis. You can see that Paul is speaking in human terms right? Or are you unable to see that? You see that in Ephesians 1, Paul is speaking in eternal terms, or are you unable to see that? I mean, in order for Paul to speak about "before the foundation of the world", by definition he can't be speaking in human terms, but in terms of eternity.Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
according to this verse would men be in Christ in time or eternity
and not according to your eisegesis
Okay. So, if I hand you a piece of paper, can you write down every person who will be a believer from tomorrow until Jesus comes again? If not, why not? Does that mean that there will no longer be people becoming Christians, because YOU DON'T KNOW, or does it depend on God, who scripture says KNOWS (present tense) His own (all that He owns). When we speak to each other about believers, do we speak of that time before the foundation of the world, that we were known to be His, by predestination to adoption, or do we talk about the time that we are temporally acknowledged to be His? That is, when we became born again, in time, reflecting what God already knew from ages past, well... from before the foundation of the world.rmy
Of course not. Men are never Christians. </sarcasm> You do realize that you and Paul speak of two different universes/realms, that of man and that of God. You are tearing God down, and saying that what God sees, what God understands, doesn't mean anything. Our present standing is but a temporal showing of an eternal truth.
Clarify your reply
are you saying that Paul in Romans `16:7 does not show men are in Christ in time
And I am telling you that the only person in the whole universe who matters is no one. However, there is a Creator who matter, and you are saying He doesn't have a clue. Is that not tearing God down? He doesn't have a say about His creation at all?and no I am not tearing God dowm I am speaking of the reality of when are in Christ
You do understand that all that Paul is stating is that they became Christians before he did, right? If you take that to Ephesians 1, and use this definition there, then we get that God chose us to be Christians before the foundation of the world, that as Christians we live holy and unblemished, right? I mean, you are the one claims a context that covers all scripture. So I just did that. However, what I would say is that in Christ here has a different connotation than the "in Christ" in Ephesians 1:4, as supported by Ephesians 1:13.according to the verse
Please answer accordingly as to what Paul is stating
It's funny how much your misunderstanding of Ephesians 1:13 totally changes your beliefs, and causes you to misunderstand other scripture. It's also funny that you accuse others of this. However, I don't have an issue connecting these verses together at all, and it supports what I believe. Something you say is not true. However, my belief springs from a FOUNDATIONAL belief, which, unfortunately for you, actually supports the whole biblical context.not what he is not stating i.e. what God sees
or what you may imagine