Unconditional election unto damnation.

[armylngst]

Army
If you really need help with this, lets cut up the verse a little, since there are a bunch of phrases. In him you also believed in him. In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. You understand that because the verse starts with "in him you also" left out a lot of context. (See what I did there.) It includes everything that comes before this verse, which you don't want to deal with.

You still have not addressed the question

What does it take

to get you to address this?

When are people in Christ according verse 13

Okay, since you seem to have problems understanding, let's use reading comprehension to figure out the topic, the main message of the verse. "You [we have to have a subject], when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of your inheritance until you take possession of it." (Verse 14 is paraphrased, but so was 13...)

As you can see, as I worded it, it becomes immediately clear that this verse cannot and does not answer the question "when are people in Christ". If it did, the verse would not make sense the way I worded it. However, it makes perfect sense. Now, if you to really not like what that means, the descriptor of the subject is that the subject is in Christ already. To reword it "You while in Christ also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,". You set yourself up.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

where is the answer

The only help I appear to need here is to get to actually address what was asked

If you want the true answer, they are in Christ for the whole verse, because that is how Paul started the verse, when you stop butchering God's Holy Word. You do understand that the actual question to ask is "what does it mean"? However, you have decided to wield you beliefs, which you are unwilling to even let God change, as a cleaver to butcher God's word. You do realize that you show that you have problems when you can't even get to the point of asking "what does it mean", right? That's the question I have, when I go to God and go over what I know in light of God. It isn't, that's wrong, it is "what does it mean", and "what effect does that have on God", and "what effect does it have on scripture". I have not had any problem lining my understanding with the context of scripture. Some things are changed a little when new information comes to light, but it has not ever changed my foundational understanding.

The term is in Christ
not ones eternal standing not when God sees

So the reason why it says "in Christ" in Ephesians 1 it is because God does not see that? Got it.

Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
according to this verse would men be in Christ in time or eternity
and not according to your eisegesis

Eisegesis. You can see that Paul is speaking in human terms right? Or are you unable to see that? You see that in Ephesians 1, Paul is speaking in eternal terms, or are you unable to see that? I mean, in order for Paul to speak about "before the foundation of the world", by definition he can't be speaking in human terms, but in terms of eternity.

rmy
Of course not. Men are never Christians. </sarcasm> You do realize that you and Paul speak of two different universes/realms, that of man and that of God. You are tearing God down, and saying that what God sees, what God understands, doesn't mean anything. Our present standing is but a temporal showing of an eternal truth.

Clarify your reply
are you saying that Paul in Romans `16:7 does not show men are in Christ in time

Okay. So, if I hand you a piece of paper, can you write down every person who will be a believer from tomorrow until Jesus comes again? If not, why not? Does that mean that there will no longer be people becoming Christians, because YOU DON'T KNOW, or does it depend on God, who scripture says KNOWS (present tense) His own (all that He owns). When we speak to each other about believers, do we speak of that time before the foundation of the world, that we were known to be His, by predestination to adoption, or do we talk about the time that we are temporally acknowledged to be His? That is, when we became born again, in time, reflecting what God already knew from ages past, well... from before the foundation of the world.

and no I am not tearing God dowm I am speaking of the reality of when are in Christ

And I am telling you that the only person in the whole universe who matters is no one. However, there is a Creator who matter, and you are saying He doesn't have a clue. Is that not tearing God down? He doesn't have a say about His creation at all?

according to the verse
Please answer accordingly as to what Paul is stating

You do understand that all that Paul is stating is that they became Christians before he did, right? If you take that to Ephesians 1, and use this definition there, then we get that God chose us to be Christians before the foundation of the world, that as Christians we live holy and unblemished, right? I mean, you are the one claims a context that covers all scripture. So I just did that. However, what I would say is that in Christ here has a different connotation than the "in Christ" in Ephesians 1:4, as supported by Ephesians 1:13.

not what he is not stating i.e. what God sees
or what you may imagine

It's funny how much your misunderstanding of Ephesians 1:13 totally changes your beliefs, and causes you to misunderstand other scripture. It's also funny that you accuse others of this. However, I don't have an issue connecting these verses together at all, and it supports what I believe. Something you say is not true. However, my belief springs from a FOUNDATIONAL belief, which, unfortunately for you, actually supports the whole biblical context.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

John 6:44 does not teach everything you are claiming. You are imposing Calvinism on it.
If you impose Arminianism on it and assume that God draws everyone, then the verse supports them.

You don't want to address what the scripture actually says, quoted by Jesus Christ. Yet, you want me to assume what the Bible does not teach.The

The verses discriminate and delineate who can come to Jesus. Not everyone can.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65

65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


Here is the bottom line: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be. But we know the Bible does not teach that because some go to hell.

I don't have to impose either Arminian or Calvinism on the verses spoke by Jesus Christ. Jesus handles it perfectly.

 

[Dizerner]

Yet, you want me to assume what the Bible does not teach.

Have you ever even considered that you have been trained and conditioned to read these Bible verses in a certain way?

Is that an impossibility?!

Here is the bottom line: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be. But we know the Bible does not teach that because some go to hell.

This is human philosophy and logic that is guiding how the Bible is being interpreted.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "Figure out how things should work if God wants a certain thing."

I don't have to impose either Arminian or Calvinism on the verses spoke by Jesus Christ. Jesus handles it perfectly.

And yet you do.

 

[sundance]

Here is the bottom line: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be. But we know the Bible does not teach that because some go to hell.

You're assuming that God can't be disappointed. The Scriptures are full of verses that express God's disappoint with everyone. Even saved people.

You are definitely imposing a requirement upon John 6:44 that does not exist. Jesus was simply expressing the fact that He and the Father are "One". Those pharisees were trying to tell others that Jesus didn't come from the Father. Jesus very clearly said that the Father was "in Him" and actively drawing men to the Son.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Have you ever even considered that you have been trained and conditioned to read these Bible verses in a certain way?

Is that an impossibility?!



This is human philosophy and logic that is guiding how the Bible is being interpreted.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "Figure out how things should work if God wants a certain thing."



And yet you do.

Once again you make reckless accusations.

I have never said
"Figure out how things should work if God wants a certain thing." You did. In practice you do it all the time here.

Misrepresenting what someone else said is against the rules, yes?

Actionable again.

I use a reliable hermeneutic and simple logic. I don't need anything else. I also have two Pastors that answer my questions on biblical interpretation.

Disagree all you want, just don't misrepresent my words.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

You're assuming that God can't be disappointed. The Scriptures are full of verses that express God's disappoint with everyone. Even saved people.

You are definitely imposing a requirement upon John 6:44 that does not exist. Jesus was simply expressing the fact that He and the Father are "One". Those pharisees were trying to tell others that Jesus didn't come from the Father. Jesus very clearly said that the Father was "in Him" and actively drawing men to the Son.

Before you post, make sure you are talking about the same thing the other poster is talking about.

This is John 6:44, not John 10 addressing the Trinity.

In this case, there are no Pharisees speaking. Jesus was addressing his disciples, not Pharisees.

If you can't follow John 6: 44 then say so and I will help you. Don't go off topic.

 

[fltom]

Here is the bottom line: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be. But we know the Bible does not teach that because some go to hell.

Are you saving God does have a desire all should be saved

1 Timothy 2:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) — 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Theo1689]

the red him first points back to no "one"
the green him also points back to "one"

Well, that seems incredibly disingenuous of you if you think that all are drawn. You split creation into two groups, "no one [coming]" and "one [coming]".

The sentence is easy to understand, if you aren't forcing your theology upon it.

1) The default of sinners is "no one can come".
2) But the Father steps in and draws a group (whether that drawn group is "everyone" or "some", there is a group who is "drawn").
3) Those who are drawn "can come", and because of how drawing works, WILL come.
4) The drawn group will then be raised up at the last day (to eternal life).

the "no one" is the main subject of the sentence and everything speaks to that

The place-holder "one" is the subject of the entire verse.
This "one" initially is "unable to come" (enslaved in sin, John 8:34).
But God chooses to "draw" a subset of these ones.
Those who are drawn WILL come.
And those who come WILL be raised up on the last day (to eternal life).

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The subject "one" is the SAME as the "object" of draw ("him") and the object of raise ("him").

And the point here is that there is nothing between the first "him" and the second "him" to cause anyone to think there has been a change in the set of people talked about.

Now, if Jesus/John had used participles instead of straight-up verbs and objective pronouns, you might have a case. It would then instead read:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
gives me the 'drawn-ones',
and then we will see the 'raised-up-ones' on the last day."

But that's NOT how it reads. Jesus does NOT make any distinction between the ones "drawn", and the ones "raised up". They are the same group.

I believe James White addresses this here:

Perhaps you do not know this but the word "Draw" is used here figuratively, and uses the figurative meaning to attract, it is not a literal passage about literally dragging someone physically to God

Thank you for insulting my intelligence, but I have been having these discussions for decades, and I have studied "draw" and "helkuo" backwards and forwards.

You are simply wrong.
That "draw" is figurative here is completely irrelevant.
It being figurative doesn't make it any less efficacious.
Moths are "drawn" to a flame. That is figurative. But that doesn't make it any less certain that the moths CAME. If they didn't, you can't say that they were "drawn". Same with a crowd being "drawn" to a band. Nobody forced them, but it is still 100% effiacious, if they didn't come, you can't honestly say they were "drawn".

You are simply looking for excuses to weaken the concept of "drawing", and to try to find room to smuggle in your false teaching of "free will".

 

[fltom]

Well, that seems incredibly disingenuous of you if you think that all are drawn. You split creation into two groups, "no one [coming]" and "one [coming]".

The sentence is easy to understand, if you aren't forcing your theology upon it.

1) The default of sinners is "no one can come".
2) But the Father steps in and draws a group (whether that drawn group is "everyone" or "some", there is a group who is "drawn").
3) Those who are drawn "can come", and because of how drawing works, WILL come.
4) The drawn group will then be raised up at the last day (to eternal life).




The place-holder "one" is the subject of the entire verse.
This "one" initially is "unable to come" (enslaved in sin, John 8:34).
But God chooses to "draw" a subset of these ones.
Those who are drawn WILL come.
And those who come WILL be raised up on the last day (to eternal life).

Er the verse states can come not will come

 

[Howie]

Er the verse states can come not will come

Er, the elect will come v37

 

[fltom]

Er, the elect will come v37

verse 37

says nothing at all about unconditional election

John 6:37 (KJV 1900) — 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[Howie]

verse 37

says nothing at all about unconditional election

Read my post again. I never said it did.

John 6:37 (KJV 1900) — 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Correct. The elect will come.

 

[sundance]

Before you post, make sure you are talking about the same thing the other poster is talking about.

This is John 6:44, not John 10 addressing the Trinity.

In this case, there are no Pharisees speaking. Jesus was addressing his disciples, not Pharisees.

If you can't follow John 6: 44 then say so and I will help you. Don't go off topic.

I believe you are mistaken. In review.....

Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

They go from murmuring to mocking Jesus ... (John Gill).

Your insistence there were no Pharisees in the group is ridiculous. Disciples???? Yeah right.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Are you saving God does have a desire all should be saved

1 Timothy 2:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) — 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is that what I said? If I didn't, then don't misrepresent of what I said.

In this case 'pas' does not mean every person individually. You know that.

G3956 - pas - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb95)

G3956 - πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), daily, ever, every (one, way), as many as, no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[sundance]

Thank you for insulting my intelligence, but I have been having these discussions for decades, and I have studied "draw" and "helkuo" backwards and forwards.

I have too. There are many that come to Jesus that leave empty....

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Drawing isn't the issue. It is your conflation.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

So, are you saying that God does not choose?

That's a downright denial of what scripture says.

I didn't say a word about John Calvin. I said what JESUS said. Do you seriously disagree with Jesus?

Jesus said this in verse 65

65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

My paraphrase:
Jesus said that the NO ONE can come to HIM unless the Father grants the person who wants to come to Jesus. Conclusion. If the Father does not choose one, they cannot come to Jesus.

Yes, you did not use the name Calvinisn but if it quacks like a duck...
verse 65 does not claim to limit who God grants to come,all it does is decalre that people cannot come unless God grants it, which does not argue against God granting everyone to come

 

[fltom]

Read my post again. I never said it did.

Correct. The elect will come.

Still no mention of unconditional election

The Fathers gives those that were his into the care of Christ

Not a hint of unconditional elect there

 

[Alexander the adequate]

maybe because

John 12:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

and

John 1:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Christ was not drawing anyone before he was lifted up


No the verse simply shows those drawn can come

It is those who do come who are raised up on the last day

yes the use of "all men" and "Every man" does indeed teach the universal call. thanks for scripture

 

[Theo1689]

I have too. There are many that come to Jesus that leave empty....

They didn't come spiritually, they came physically.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Nothing here says the young man was drawn by the Father.

Drawing isn't the issue. It is your conflation.

Actually, it is.
But it doesn't fit your false theology, so you have to deny that it's the issue.

 

[fltom]

Is that what I said? If I didn't, then don't misrepresent of what I said.

In this case 'pas' does not mean every person individually. You know that.

G3956 - pas - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb95)

G3956 - πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), daily, ever, every (one, way), as many as, no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

www.blueletterbible.org

You do know what a question is?

fltom said:
Are you saving God does have a desire all should be saved (question)

1 Timothy 2:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) — 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.