Is Pre-mortality part of "the Gospel"?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brotherofJared and Richard7,

I realize that u might not agree with me, but it would be impossible for Jesus to be 100% human if his father wasn't human.

Adam and Jesus were made a little lower than the Angels, and he shared the same flesh and blood nature as us, in other words he was human, with God the Father as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit, a creative process.
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Never studied Ekklesia(s)

I was using the Greek word Ekklesia. My fellowship coined an Anglicisation of this word and use the word Ecclesia to represent those who have been called out of the world to become the disciples of Christ and to meet together in fellowship. I appreciate the detailed answers to the rest of my post and I will consider this tomorrow (very late here in Australia, 11pm).

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Richard7]

It's hard to know mormon doctrine. Every mormon seems to have their own account.

Yep! Line upon line, we all are progressing to receive even more light and knowledge... after all the restoration is still ongoing...

“We’re witnesses to a process of restoration,” President Russell M. Nelson has said. “If you think the Church has been fully restored, you’re just seeing the beginning. There is much more to come. … Wait till next year. And then the next year. Eat your vitamin pills. Get your rest. It’s going to be exciting.”

Pres. Nelson.

 

[Richard7]

Greetings again brotherofJared and Richard7,

Adam and Jesus were made a little lower than the Angels, and he shared the same flesh and blood nature as us, in other words he was human, with God the Father as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit, a creative process.
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I was using the Greek word Ekklesia. My fellowship coined an Anglicisation of this word and use the word Ecclesia to represent those who have been called out of the world to become the disciples of Christ and to meet together in fellowship. I appreciate the detailed answers to the rest of my post and I will consider this tomorrow (very late here in Australia, 11pm).

Kind regards
Trevor

Interesting, the Christian Church as a whole.... hmm

 

[CrowCross]

Yep! Line upon line, we all are progressing to receive even more light and knowledge... after all the restoration is still ongoing...

“We’re witnesses to a process of restoration,” President Russell M. Nelson has said. “If you think the Church has been fully restored, you’re just seeing the beginning. There is much more to come. … Wait till next year. And then the next year. Eat your vitamin pills. Get your rest. It’s going to be exciting.”

Pres. Nelson.

No body prior to your ever changing "restoration" was saved. People who see your "restoration" as false...are also not saved.

Only mormons...baptized by a mormon are saved.

 

[Richard7]

No body prior to your ever changing "restoration" was saved.

Not true...

People who see your "restoration" as false...are also not saved.

Saved? what is your definition?

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament. LDS.org

Only mormons...baptized by a mormon are saved.

We are not mormons, big misunderstanding..... we are saved only if we do the following, Faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the HG and endure the end which entails other ordinances and covenants we make...

 

[CrowCross]

Not true...

Then why the need for the mormons only are saved theology?

Saved? what is your definition?

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament. LDS.org

Just how obedient?

We are not mormons, big misunderstanding..... we are saved only if we do the following, Faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the HG and endure the end which entails other ordinances and covenants we make...

Alll this equals "works" .

According to the bible mormon theology doesn't save.

 

[Magdalena]

Not true...




Saved? what is your definition?

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament. LDS.org


We are not mormons, big misunderstanding..... we are saved only if we do the following, Faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the HG and endure the end which entails other ordinances and covenants we make...

In other words, only Mormons are saved.

 

[Richard7]

Then why the need for the mormons only are saved theology?

Validate your claim, where does that only saved theology come from... not something I ever taught.... I can think of lots of non-members who will have the same opportunity as anyone else to be saved to the celestial kingdom...

Article of Faith 3​

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Just how obedient?

Alll this equals "works" .

According to the bible mormon theology doesn't save.

"Saved by Grace, exalted by works"...simple yet truthful

 

[Richard7]

In other words, only Mormons are saved.

You must have forgotten why we baptize for the dead, all dead will have the same opportunities that any LDS Saint has...

 

[CrowCross]

Validate your claim, where does that only saved theology come from... not something I ever taught.... I can think of lots of non-members who will have the same opportunity as anyone else to be saved to the celestial kingdom...

Article of Faith 3​

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.




"Saved by Grace, exalted by works"...simple yet truthful

I was saved through faith in Christ...alone.

Mormons would deny that...and must work through their check-off list. Even at death they can only hope they were good enough and obedient enough.

The bottom line...Mormons "do" to save their butts...while Christians "do" because of their salvation.

 

[Richard7]

I was saved through faith in Christ...alone.

Mormons would deny that...and must work through their check-off list. Even at death they can only hope they were good enough and obedient enough.

The bottom line...Mormons "do" to save their butts...while Christians "do" because of their salvation.

Saved to what? saved as in the free gift to all men, a resurrected body? yes ! that you have been...
Again we are saved by the Grace of God.... that is our doctrine period... after that we need to endure and all that entails..
Bottom line, you misrepresent our doctrine ...

 

[brotherofJared]

Never studied Ekklesia(s)

yea. the rest of his questions were off topic and in my opinion, an attempt to derail the topic.

 

[brotherofJared]

Adam and Jesus were made a little lower than the Angels

So? What does that have to do with the pure biological fact that in humans, humans can only be procreated by parents of the same species?

 

[CrowCross]

Saved to what? saved as in the free gift to all men, a resurrected body? yes ! that you have been...
Again we are saved by the Grace of God.... that is our doctrine period... after that we need to endure and all that entails..
Bottom line, you misrepresent our doctrine ...

...and if you don't "endure"....then what?

As to "that is our doctrine period"....That's not what I read from LDS sites. There is a check off list.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brotherofJared,

So? What does that have to do with the pure biological fact that in humans, humans can only be procreated by parents of the same species?

I suggest that you read again Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 and try to understand what these are actually saying, that the only father of our Lord Jesus is God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit. This was a creative process and includes pure biology. How does pure biology account for the healing of a lame man, where parts need to grow instantly?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brotherofJared]

Greetings again brotherofJared,

I suggest that you read again Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 and try to understand what these are actually saying, that the only father of our Lord Jesus is God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit. This was a creative process and includes pure biology. How does pure biology account for the healing of a lame man, where parts need to grow instantly?

Kind regards
Trevor

Healing a blind man has nothing to do with biology. If Jesus was 100% human then both parents had to be human. Try to focus on the argument at hand.

 

[Richard7]

...and if you don't "endure"....then what?

As to "that is our doctrine period"....That's not what I read from LDS sites. There is a check off list.

If you don't endure to the end, your left with faith alone....and faith without works (enduring or continuing) is dead (lost or separated from God)

Spiritual death is to be "cut off from the presence of the Lord," the phrase used repeatedly in the scriptures to define the term (2 Nephi 9:6; Alma 42:9; Helaman 14:16). Being cut off from the Lord's presence can mean being actually separated from God himself or being alienated from God's ways through a sinful lifestyle (to "die as to things pertaining unto righteousness"; Alma 12:16, 32; 40:26).

Spiritual Death - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

www.mormonwiki.com

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brotherofJared,

If Jesus was 100% human then both parents had to be human. Try to focus on the argument at hand.

You have not responded to Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 which clearly teach (focus) that God the Father was the father of Jesus and this is part of the discussion which you seem to ignore.

I have finished reading the second section of the book by Forrest Brinkerhoff, Mormonism - a Historical and Scriptural Analysis:
Section 2 How the Church Obtains and Controls its Membership
Introduction page 40
Chapter 8 Mormonism's Appeal pages 41-43
Chapter 9 The Priesthood in the Church pages 44-52 (includes LDS documents)
Chapter 10 Methods of Control in the Church pages 53-55
Chapter 11 The Five Laws and Their Significance pages 56-58

My initial comment on this section is that the Mormon Church is very different to my fellowship and different in many details to the First Century Congregations in my estimation. There was not much mention of doctrine in this section as this is the subject of the next section:
Section 3 The Beliefs of the Mormons Compared with Bible Teachings pages 59-80
One concept that was mentioned in Section 2 was the LDS teaching that there is a continuation of marriage in the future age. The writer of the book, Forrest Brinkerhoff, stated that Mormons ignore the plain teaching of Jesus in:
Luke 20:34–36 (KJV): 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brotherofJared]

You have not responded to Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 which clearly teach (focus) that God the Father was the father of Jesus and this is part of the discussion which you seem to ignore.

I don't need to. It's irrelevant to the argument. In order for Jesus to be human, both parents must be human. That logic stipulates that whatever you being up that identifies who the father is, that being is human. Period.

 

[brotherofJared]

One concept that was mentioned in Section 2 was the LDS teaching that there is a continuation of marriage in the future age. The writer of the book, Forrest Brinkerhoff, stated that Mormons ignore the plain teaching of Jesus in:
Luke 20:34–36 (KJV): 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Start another thread. This one has nothing to do with pre-mortality