It does in BibleHub's Strongs. I tried to link to it, but I can't copy the url. Take look, or don't.
To assert that preordain and predestine are antonymns, as you are doing, is wrong.
When does one's Predestination start?
- Thread starter Synergy
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To assert that preordain and predestine are antonymns, as you are doing, is wrong.
That's not what I said.
You're not following the conversation, champ. Go back and run it down as I just did.
Eph 1:5
I never said they were "antonymns". I said they contain different meanings, hence different words. Comprends tu?
You're right. You didn't call them antonymns. I threw that in there.
Their meanings are synonymous. Check a thesaurus.
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Eph 1:5 NASB He predestined us to the adoption as sons
What does KJV say - Having predestinated
Were you saying that the concept of "predestined" is not in Eph 1:5?
It obviously is. But what is predestined is the adoption as sons. What is that? Some think it means salvation. But according to Romans 8:23 it is another way to say the redemption of our bodies. Also in that Chapter you see that one thing that is predestined v29 is to be conformed to Jesus' image.
So salvation, being born again are not spoken of as predestined, but things that accompany salvation are becaue who He foreknew, He predestined v29
He already addressed adoption.
I never said that. What I'm trying to do with Howie is to explain to him that prepared beforehand or preordain does not equate to predestination. Also, he has yet to provide a verse that says we were predestined to be saved.
I agree. You need to go through my pages of conversation with Howie to understand what we're discussing.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So God prepares beforehand or preordains with no purpose in mind? Obviously it would seem whatever God prepares beforehand or preordains is predestined to occur.
A little research on your part would show you the purpose that God has in mind:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
There you go again conflating preordination with predestination. It's clear that Calvinist presuppositions are every hard to break through and to see what the Bible actually says.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
You did not address my point. Let me repeat myself at least for the lurkers. If God prepares beforehand or preordains is it predestined to occur? Prime example, Acts 4:27,28
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Oh for heaven's sake, buy a thesaurus.
And you have yet to produce a verse that says we were not predestined to be saved.
So much for your argument from silence fallacy.
Iconoclast
Well-known member
Obviously you do not see it.Your posts show this.You have no idea what you are looking at because you fragment what is written.Every single verse does have to contain every.word .
Every verse does not have to say....born again,repent,predestined,elect,called, for these truths to be,just because you are spiritually blind.
Amen
Josheb
Well-known member
Prove it.
Josheb
Well-known member
You do not get to make up the rules.
I was not the only one who showed you the many verses pertaining to work that had occurred prior to our conversion, many of them this op left out. This op argues from a limited selection of verses and the ensuing discussion demonstrated a willful refusal to consider whole scripture.
You don't get to make the rules. God does.
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Before I responded to you, I had gone thru much of the chat between you two, But even though I am mostly in agreement with you, I have been unable to follow exactly what distinction you are trying to make bewteen "foreordain" and "predestine"
Maybe a list would help?
List things that are pre(fore)ordained and spearately list things that are predestined.
I am honestly trying to understand your position
Josheb
Well-known member
Sophistry.
Since there is no destiny without having been called (and chosen, and regenerate, and sanctified, and..., and..., and ALL the other components NECESSARY for salvation) the predestined is there for you to see when you're ready and willing. There is no destiny apart from the purpose of our salvation, either. I have already specifically covered this. The purpose of our salvation was decided before the world began. Not only was the purpose of our salvation decided before the world began but according to Ephesians 1:10 every single one of us is being created in Christ for works God had already planned for us to perform. Pre-existing purpose, a pre-existing plan of works, (pre-)decided upon before God saved any of us.
Something important has occurred. This op starts off with interpretive views of scripture. As the thread unfolded several posters have provided some very explicit statements from scripture that confront the interpretation(s). One of the core flaws appears to be the temporal orientation to the exclusion of the divine or eternal. You've tried to dismiss it with the label "spiritual" as if the matter is being allegorized but that completely ignores the facts of the blunt verse provided and now in evidence. Adjust your views to become theo-centric and not human-centric.
Try considering that the "bottom line," and "the rule that governs our lives" because finite time and space do not govern our lives. God does. God is not bound by anything He created, not even time and space and that is always and everywhere the global context for all of scripture. The word, "predestined" is all about exceeding specific points in time or specific causes and their effects. We had a destiny before we were saved. We just didn't know it. Our learning of it is not when it began any more than the point at which we took it on defines its beginning in Christ.
No spiritualizing required.
The truth is our being "in Christ" is like our being saved. We are saved we are being saved and we will be saved. Scripture uses all three tenses. It also does so within the inescapable context of our salvation being in Christ, in the one who was foreknown before the world was created as the perfect sacrifice. There has never been a moment anywhere or anytime in creation when Jesus was not the resurrection and the life. If only one person were to be resurrected that person's destiny ALWAYS existed in Christ, in the perfect sacrifice, in what for us temporally was a pending resurrection but for Christ was a fait accompli. God knew who that person would be because He chose him, called him, gave him an already decided upon purpose containing already assigned works............... before the world began.
Now multiply that by millions instead of just one purpose.
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Note that it is truth to state the Bible has no verses that predestine salvation, or preordain salvation. Instead it speaks that way of those things that accompany salvation. For example: No one is predestined to believe, but those who believe are predestined to have new bodies.
Josheb
Well-known member
Can we amend that to change "accompany" to say something like "co-occur" or "coincide" or "are inherent with" so as not to give the impression a person can be saved but not also have all the many conditions co-occurring with having been regenerate and brought from death to life? No one who is regenerated is not also sanctified. Everyone who is saved has also been called, chosen, justified, etc. While it is true a person can be called and not chose and Christ's work is sufficient justification for all even if God does not save them, there isn't anyone who is actually saved who doesn't have the whole package.