A short essay for the Brit who thinks "torture" is a synonym for "punishment"

[Semmelweis Reflex]

You're welcome. I hope this experience encourages you to show more humility when commenting on a language you don't read.

I don't think it will, especially if those who may have that ability are so stupid, arrogant and completely incapable of being an example in that capacity or even demonstrating where I'm wrong. Kolasin is a word that means pruning. Plato said it, Aristotle said it and LSJ confirms it. You, however, do not. When you can I'll consider humility.

 

[Lucian]

Kolasin is a word that means pruning.

It doesn't, though.

Plato said it,

Where?

Aristotle said it

Where?

and LSJ confirms it.

On the contrary, it confirms the opposite.

You, however, do not. When you can I'll consider humility.

Alas, you're choosing to double down, rather than learn about a language you don't read from someone who does read it.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

If you can explain that, I will address the rest of your post, but if not, then it is clear you have lost the debate, and have had to sink to stiggy's level of just making stuff up for want of anything of any substance.

Hey, little man. That was quite cowardly of you. After I smoked you in this very thread, only to have you turn tail and run, to make up a lie about me in a discussion with someone else and not even attempt to copy/paste your bogus claim, that's even low by your bottomed-out standards.

Show me some "stuff" I made up.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

It doesn't, though.

Ah, but you see, it does.

Where?

Doesn't matter.

Where?

Doesn't matter.

On the contrary, it confirms the opposite.

No, it doesn't.

Alas, you're choosing to double down, rather than learn about a language you don't read from someone who does read it.

That's fine. If you, as a contemporary of Aristotle himself, came here in a time machine and became president and head professor of koine Greek at the Sapienza University of Rome, what you've given me so far would be more insignificant to me than if Patrick from Sponge Bob Square Pants showed the same thing to me on the Cartoon Network. Do you comprehend? Using your own terminology, what you've told me is no more significant than a fart in the wind. Until you show me.

From Patrick I would gladly learn whereas from you I can not.

I would say, to Patrick, "Oh, Patrick, I've been so wrong. Why didn't I see?!" To which, he would simply say, "That incompetent from Sapienza didn't show you. Oh, and by the way, Aristotle, Empedocles, Anaximander and Anaxagoras taught evolution prior to Darwin as well."

 

[Lucian]

Ah, but you see, it does.

No, it doesn't.

Doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

Again, you evade when pressed on the claims you make.

No, it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

That's fine. If you, as a contemporary of Aristotle himself, came here in a time machine and became president and head professor of koine Greek at the Sapienza University of Rome, what you've given me so far would be more insignificant to me than if Patrick from Sponge Bob Square Pants showed the same thing to me on the Cartoon Network. Do you comprehend? Using your own terminology, what you've told me is no more significant than a fart in the wind. Until you show me.

From Patrick I would gladly learn whereas from you I can not.

You're resorting to rambling again, rather than defending the claims you make, or taking the opportunity to learn from those who know (much) more than you do.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

No, it doesn't.

Again, you evade when pressed on the claims you make.

Yes, it does.

You're resorting to rambling again, rather than defending the claims you make, or taking the opportunity to learn from those who know (much) more than you do.

Show me.

 

[Lucian]

Show me.

I don't know what you're asking for, I'm afraid.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

I don't know what you're asking for, I'm afraid.

If you were half as smart as you think you are you would. Show me where I'm wrong. I'm not going to take your word for it and from the very start that's the game you're playing. Make a simple list where, in this thread, you think I'm wrong and then show me why you think that. Don't just say you know more than me. Don't just say Yes it is, no it isn't. etc. and the reason why I say this is that you seem to be placing a flimsy argument on semantics.

For example, from the other thread I say Darwin wasn't the first and then I give you all sorts of sources and you still deny it. No argument you just say something to the effect that contrary to all of those sources, even by the philosophers themselves that taught it, they didn't.

So, what do you mean by that. That they didn't teach it at all? That their primitive, rudimentary teachings aren't [looks at watch] current? You could mean anything as far as I know. You won't explain it, you won't show me.

I don't care who or what you are. Show me.

 

[SteveB]

torture
noun: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.


What am I twisting, Steve? Here is the text:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’​

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’​

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’​

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​

I am claiming Jesus is telling us that:

• God will send those who reject him to a lake of fire
• Those in the lake of fire will feel intense pain
• The above is God's punishment

Have I got any of that wrong? We have been discussing this across two threads in numerous posts, and I do not recall you saying any of these are wrong before. And how can you? The text is pretty clear. God will punish those who reject them by burning them in a lake of fire for eternity.

So tell me, how am I twisting Jesus' word, Steve?

And in what way is the above different to the dictionary definition of torture?

If you can explain that, I will address the rest of your post, but if not, then it is clear you have lost the debate, and have had to sink to stiggy's level of just making stuff up for want of anything of any substance.

You're twisting what Jesus said and seeking to impose your beliefs about torture to be the punishment you'll experience.

Pity you keep clipping what Jesus said to fit your biases.

Mat 25:31-46 WEB 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. 36 I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ 40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The unrighteous will be punished for eternity.
The righteous will live in a Kingdom prepared for us by God, dating back to the foundation of the world.



As previously stated,

YHVH will be with his people on the new heaven and earth.

He'll be dwelling with us.

Rev 21:1-8 WEB 1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people; and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain any more. The first things have passed away.” 5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”


So, I'm sure why you're having such a problem with this.

You're choosing where you want to spend your eternity.

If you don't want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire, then come join us in paradise, where God will actually be.

It's an eternally better choice.

We're inviting everyone we can.

 

[The Pixie]

Hey, little man. That was quite cowardly of you. After I smoked you in this very thread, only to have you turn tail and run, to make up a lie about me in a discussion with someone else and not even attempt to copy/paste your bogus claim, that's even low by your bottomed-out standards.

Show me some "stuff" I made up.

Besides the ridiculous claim that you "smoked" me? Well, here are six things you have made up on this thread, as I listed in post #15.

1. You are pretending I think "torture" is a synonym for "punishment"
2. You were pretending there is no "or" in punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure", but at least you seem to have given this one up
3. You are pretending I "inflicted intense pain" on my kids to punish them
4. You are pretending I said God is in the lake of fire
5. You are pretending I think since it CAN be, it therefore IS
6. You are insinuating I am claiming God is using a blow torch from on high

 

[The Pixie]

torture
noun: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.

You're twisting what Jesus said and seeking to impose your beliefs about torture to be the punishment you'll experience.

I asked that you explain why you think I am twisting what Jesus said, and all you can do is repeat your baseless assertion.

Why is that Steve? Because you just made it up.

Pity you keep clipping what Jesus said to fit your biases.

Mat 25:31-46 WEB 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. 36 I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ 40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The unrighteous will be punished for eternity.
The righteous will live in a Kingdom prepared for us by God, dating back to the foundation of the world.

That the unrighteous - here defined as those who reject God - will be punished for eternity is the very basis for my argument. Clearly I am not twisting what Jesus said here.

As previously stated,

YHVH will be with his people on the new heaven and earth.

He'll be dwelling with us.

So your argument is that God will not be torturing those he sent to the lake of fire because he will be in heaven, and God is not capable of being in to places at once?

You really want to go with that?

So, I'm sure why you're having such a problem with this.

Because God is supposed to be everywhere. Therefore he can be with you in heaven at the same time as he is torturing people in hell.

Or he can just toss his victims in the lake of fire, and walk away. Even if he is not there in person, it is still administering the punishment. He is still torturing them.

You're choosing where you want to spend your eternity.

If you don't want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire, then come join us in paradise, where God will actually be.

It's an eternally better choice.

We're inviting everyone we can.

So nothing at all about how I am twisting Jesus' word. You just made it up. Colour me unsurprised.

 

[Dizerner]

Even atheists can see what the Bible really describes as hell.

It's quite sad when so-called Bible believers don't have the stomach to just accept it, but feel the need to water it down.

I'm one of those old-fashioned proponents of traditional hell, as is clearly described in the Bible.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Besides the ridiculous claim that you "smoked" me? Well, here are six things you have made up on this thread, as I listed in post #15.

1. You are pretending I think "torture" is a synonym for "punishment"

That one's easy. You constantly lie and say, "God tortures." When I ask you to back that up, you quote an eschatological passage from Matthew which say nothing about torture but plenty about punishment.

Therefore you must think "torture" is a synonym for "punishment."

You were pretending there is no "or" in punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure", but at least you seem to have given this one up.

Nope. Never happened. That's why you failed to show where.

You are pretending I "inflicted intense pain" on my kids to punish them

You admitted that you had on occasion punished your kids. Seeing as how you think "punish" and "torture" are synonyms (see above) I ASKED (not stated) if you therefore tortured your kids.

Not doing too well with your big LIST, now are ya?

You are pretending I said God is in the lake of fire

Yep. Since you lied by saying "God tortures" those in the lake of fire, that is a natural conclusion. Remember, I even asked if He was using a blow torch and aiming it down.

You are pretending I think since it CAN be, it therefore IS

I have no idea what that refers to, and doubt you do either.

You are insinuating I am claiming God is using a blow torch from on high.

Oh, you DO remember. I ASKED you if that were the case. Well, does He?

I think you need to crumple up that big list of yours and consign IT to a lake of fire.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Even atheists can see what the Bible really describes as hell.

It's quite sad when so-called Bible believers don't have the stomach to just accept it, but feel the need to water it down.

So whom are you accusing of watering it down? Can you copy/paste where this unnamed Bible believer is supposedly watering down hell? At least you're not claiming he or she is watering down the lake of fire. That would take a hell (no pun intended) of a lot of water.

 

[Lucian]

Show me where I'm wrong.

I've already done this, I think, but I'm happy to do so again:

• You've claimed that kolasin (sometimes 'kolisin', in your parlance) is a Greek word, but this is false: you won't find an entry for it in the LSJ, to which you've appealed, for example. It's rather an inflection of kolasis, which is indeed a word.
• You've claimed that kolasis means 'pruning', which is at best deeply misleading, and at worse just false: the word means punishment vel sim., with the meaning of 'pruning' very much a 'side' translation, in the same sense that 'fart' is a side translation of pneuma. It's poor form to select obscure meanings from an entry in a lexicon and declare that this is what the word 'means'; this is why I said that the LSJ is a good source, but that we're dealing with a case of user error, namely yours.
  • Worse, you claimed that kolasis means 'pruning' in the context of Matthew 25:46, leading to the translation 'and they will depart to eternal pruning'(!).
• You claimed that the "Greek word for fart is βδέω". But of course that's a verb, and I was evidently, since I was referring to pneuma, talking about the noun. This indicates that you're confused about how verbs and nouns are distinguished in Greek, and perhaps even in English.
• You claimed that kolasin is the "feminine… form of kolasis". But this is senseless: it's a feminine noun, so this isn't the feminine form, as though a masculine were also available. I asked you about this, but you studiously avoided the question, perhaps because you had just uncritically copied the information from the Perseus Project.
• You've claimed that Aristotle and Plato 'say' that "Kolasin is a word that means pruning". You've declined to answer where they say this upon being challenged, declaring that this "isn't important", which constitutes an evasion.

In general, where you've not evaded, you've rambled or resorted to abuse. You might consider the sense in continuing to argue about a language you don't read and in reference to which you've undertaken no relevant study with someone who does and has.

 

[SteveB]

torture
noun: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.


I asked that you explain why you think I am twisting what Jesus said, and all you can do is repeat your baseless assertion.

Why is that Steve? Because you just made it up.

Wow, so this is simply a matter of under no circumstances whatsoever will you admit that kolasis is not toompanidzo, and toompanidzo is not kolasis.

Ok. That's fine. Live with your stupidity.
I'm quite confident that you'll find out the hard way, after it's too late to resolve it.

That the unrighteous - here defined as those who reject God - will be punished for eternity is the very basis for my argument. Clearly I am not twisting what Jesus said here.

Actually, you are. You have continued to impose toompanidzo into the discussion, stating that toompanidzo is an aspect of kolasis and it cannot be any other way.

So, I think it's time to simply let you learn the truth the hard way. It's always a far more effective method of learning. In spite of just how excruciatingly painful it is.

So your argument is that God will not be torturing those he sent to the lake of fire because he will be in heaven, and God is not capable of being in to places at once?

It's not a matter of capability.
It's a simple matter of want to.
You're arguing that God will be in the lake of fire torturing you.
The bible is quite clear that once you die and face the judgment due sin, God will not impose himself on you, at any level.
He'll say goodbye and that'll be the end of your interactions with him.

He's plainly stated that he will dwell on the new earth with his people.

Those who are perishing will be left alone with their sin and the consequences thereof.

You really want to go with that?

Yep.
It's plainly stated in the bible.
Why do you want to disregard what the bible says, and then impose toompanidzo where kolasis is?

Because God is supposed to be everywhere.

Indeed.
This is about afterwards, in eternity. Not right now.

Therefore he can be with you in heaven at the same time as he is torturing people in hell.

Yet you have nothing to actually support this.
@stiggy wiggy already asked you to provide evidence to corroborate your claims and you have yet to do so.

Or he can just toss his victims in the lake of fire, and walk away.

Which is what I read.

Even if he is not there in person, it is still administering the punishment. He is still torturing them.

Nope.
It's kolasis. Not toompanidzo.

So nothing at all about how I am twisting Jesus' word. You just made it up. Colour me unsurprised.

Pity you lack the ability to actually understand.

 

[SteveB]

Even atheists can see what the Bible really describes as hell.

It's quite sad when so-called Bible believers don't have the stomach to just accept it, but feel the need to water it down.

I'm one of those old-fashioned proponents of traditional hell, as is clearly described in the Bible.

Great.

What's your point?

Are you seeing something I've described as unbiblical?

 

[treeplanter]

Following any other god is idolatry, and a corruption of the human being.

Even if that were true, is it fair to hold a person responsible for corruption that comes from having made an honest and innocent mistake?

Is it fair to hold a person responsible when said person has been deceived?

 

[treeplanter]

In order to save the herd he has to destroy the diseased. He doesn't want to do it. Some of them may be newborn, young, or gestating.

Bristle away, but I could not disagree more!

The human rancher may have no other choice except to destroy the diseased cattle, but God has an infinite number of choices

If God can create a cow from scratch, then He sure as hell can remove disease from a cow without destroying the cow
No sophistication required in knowing this, just common sense...

 

[SteveB]

Even if that were true,

It's quite true.

is it fair to hold a person responsible for corruption that comes from having made an honest and innocent mistake?

Well, once you've heard the gospel of Jesus, and the law of God, yes, we are held accountable.

So, if you have heard, but choose to reject Jesus, then there is no "honest and innocent mistake" anymore.

God will indeed be gracious and give us time to turn to YHVH from our sin, but at a certain point, time runs out and it's time to pay the proverbial piper.

Is it fair to hold a person responsible when said person has been deceived?

YHVH says yep.

Isa 45:23 WEB I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Phi 2:9-11 WEB 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb 9:27 WEB Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,

Act 17:31 WEB because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.”

Yep! Totally, and 100% fair.