How can there be a loving God?

5wize said:
The amount of time during which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest. It was a 7 hour operation. Did Pam report 7 hours of conversation and awareness?
Click to expand...
How does a brain without aid of conciosness and open eyes accurately see and remember things around it during that time of unconciousness and blindness?

You may have more faith in this matter than I do, lol.
 
Judges13:18 said:
Show me a video or transcript explaing the details of how the testimony was misrepresented.
Click to expand...
You are doing it now. You are claiming that she was totally brain dead during the time she received these impressions. You have never given us a timeline of the corroborated conversations juxtaposed to the actual span of time she was fully flatlined in the middle of the operation. The majority of the operation she was not flatlined.
 
Judges13:18 said:
How does a brain without aid of conciosness and open eyes accurately see and remember things around it during that time of unconciousness and blindness?

You may have more faith in this matter than I do, lol.
Click to expand...
There is very little corroborated with the external operation room and the conversations in comparison to the time she was under. Most of the time she was communing with dead relatives.
 
Judges13:18 said:
I did not say it was supernatural. I was using your argument for consistency of experience to prove the validity of experience in regard to the brain during sleep, which you can relate to, to show the fallacy of your argument.
Click to expand...
But you have no consistency of experience even though we supposedly all have a soul, so I am not getting your point. You are reporting very inconsistent as well as very scant experiences for something that is supposedly consistent and ubiquitous- an aware soul in us all - not attached to our mind/brain that rests sometimes and is active at others.. You seem to be saying the soul works like dream states - sometimes you get em - sometimes you don’t. What good is that for your claim that we all have separately conscious souls? It doesn’t help your argument at all.

In fact the proper conclusion to your argument is that the soul acts like the brain - so its the brain.
 
Last edited:
5wize said:
There is very little corroborated with the external operation room and the conversations in comparison to the time she was under. Most of the time she was communing with dead relatives.
Click to expand...
Found this:

Could Pam Reynolds have been aware without the anesthesiologist knowing of her awareness? The answer is yes. Her body temperature during all the periods of verifiable perceptions of sounds, speech, and music was nearly normal.

So I was correct. The experiences reported were not during the cryogenic portion of the operation.

 
Caroljeen said:
The different time would not be related to the created time which came about by the beginning of the universe. Not the same timeline. There is one timeline for prior to the beginning of the universe which still continues and a different timeline that begins with the creation of the universe which still continues but will end. The spirit world time line will continue after the demise of the universe. (Although there is debate about what is meant by a new heaven and a new earth.)
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that's plainly contradictory. You can't say both that the timelines are unrelated and that one came before the other. 'Before' and 'prior' are temporal relations.

Caroljeen said:
Greg Boyd in the article I posted earlier makes a distinction between time and sequence. post # 949
Do you think there is a distinction to be made?
Click to expand...
I don't know, as I haven't read it. How would you make the distinction? What more is there to time beyond things being in a sequence of before and after?
 
Judges13:18 said:
Are you saying people can have the awareness of seeing through closed eyelids, and remember it while under anaesthesia?
Click to expand...
No. Are you blindly going to accept everything you've been told by Michael Sabom at face value without any critical examination?

Pam was taken into the operating theatre before being administered any anaesthesia, so she would have a good idea of her surroundings. If she was subject to a degree of anaesthesia awareness half way between awake and out cold she could well have had an episode like dreaming along with hearing what was going on around her. I have had such experiences half way between being awake and asleep.
 
Judges13:18 said:
How does a brain without aid of conciosness and open eyes accurately see and remember things around it during that time of unconciousness and blindness?

You may have more faith in this matter than I do, lol.
Click to expand...
Why are you not taking into account the possibility that Pam was not actually seeing but sort of dreaming due to anaesthesia awareness? To put it another way, she wasn't properly unconscious at the time of her episodes of awareness.
 
Temujin said:
Stability is a property which nothingness doesn't have. Instability is the absence of stability, therefore nothingness is unstable.
Click to expand...
Nothingness cannot have properties because its the absence of something. Only something can have properties. Nothing is nonexistence.
 
Gus Bovona said:
The thing that gives it instability is something that doesn't exist (it would necessarily not exist, because we're talking about nothingness): it's the absence of any law or principle that says something can't come from nothing.
Click to expand...
Why does it follow that there must be a law or principle that determines something cannot come from nothing...and without a law nothingness can bring about something? That's just the semantics of absence. Nothingness is the absence of absolutely everything. Nothingness is the state of nonexistence.

Let's pretend that you somehow had the power to walk into the state of nothingness would you find anything there other than yourself? Would you find instability?
 
Tetsugaku said:
How so? How are you defining a time-frame? The gun firer isn't outside of time,
Click to expand...

No. He is outside the race time.

Tetsugaku said:
and is temporally related to everything that comes after.
Click to expand...

No. He is not. T=0 for him. ZERO! He's not in race time.

Tetsugaku said:
Okay, so you believe in causation from outside of time into it, without the cause having to precede its effect. I don't.
Click to expand...

Nor do I. All effects have a cause. God is not an effect.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
No. He is outside the race time.
No. He is not. T=0 for him. ZERO! He's not in race time.
Click to expand...
A gun firer is temporally related to what comes after. He is not outside of time altogether, and is merely in more time that precedes race time. That is different from what you say about God, who you say is entirely outside of time.

stiggy wiggy said:
Nor do I.
Click to expand...
You don't believe in God causing time from outside of time?

stiggy wiggy said:
All effects have a cause. God is not an effect.
Click to expand...
I don't see how that relates to what I said.
 
Tetsugaku said:
I'm afraid that's plainly contradictory. You can't say both that the timelines are unrelated and that one came before the other. 'Before' and 'prior' are temporal relations.
Click to expand...
There is a transcendent timeline or you could call it a timeline in the spiritual dimension which existed before the material timeline. Why would the transcendent spiritual timeline have anything to do with the material timeline? Spiritual beings like the angels, fallen angels, and God can interact and be causal in both timelines. Material beings only interact for the most part in the material timeline.

The timelines are unrelated because they are in different dimensions.

Tetsugaku said:
I don't know, as I haven't read it. How would you make the distinction? What more is there to time beyond things being in a sequence of before and after?
Click to expand...
Do the thoughts in our minds count as time? There is definitely a sequence to our thinking. Is there time involved?
How would that apply to an eternal, transcendent being? Would the sequence of his thoughts count as time?
 
Caroljeen said:
There is a transcendent timeline or you could call it a timeline in the spiritual dimension which existed before the material timeline. Why would the transcendent spiritual timeline have anything to do with the material timeline? Spiritual beings like the angels, fallen angels, and God can interact and be causal in both timelines. Material beings only interact for the most part in the material timeline.

The timelines are unrelated because they are in different dimensions.
Click to expand...
Sorry, that's still contradictory. If one bit of time occurs before another bit of time, then that makes both part of the same timeline. You cannot say they are unrelated while also relating them by the terms 'before' and 'after'.

Caroljeen said:
Do the thoughts in our minds count as time? There is definitely a sequence to our thinking. Is there time involved? How would that apply to an eternal, transcendent being? Would the sequence of his thoughts count as time?
Click to expand...
Sure, thoughts occur within time. If there can be some kind of non-temporal thought, then this isn't something we can conceive of.
 
Tetsugaku said:
A gun firer is temporally related to what comes after. He is not outside of time altogether, and is merely in more time that precedes race time. That is different from what you say about God, who you say is entirely outside of time.
Click to expand...

God started the universe by creating time, while outside of time. Similarly, the guy firing the gun starts the race time, while outside the race. It makes no difference to the race if the gun is fired at noon or 1 PM.

Tetsugaku said:
You don't believe in God causing time from outside of time?
Click to expand...

No, I do.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
God started the universe by creating time, while outside of time. Similarly, the guy firing the gun starts the race time, while outside the race. It makes no difference to the race if the gun is fired at noon or 1 PM.
Click to expand...
Sure, but we've been discussing whether or not causes must precede their effects in time, with you saying God (the cause) causes time (the effect) without preceding it. Your analogy instead gives a case where the cause (gun firer) does precede the effect (the race) in time.

stiggy wiggy said:
No, I do.
Click to expand...
So what part of this did you disagree with: "Okay, so you believe in causation from outside of time into it, without the cause [God] having to precede its effect [time]."?
 
Tetsugaku said:
Sorry, that's still contradictory. If one bit of time occurs before another bit of time, then that makes both part of the same timeline. You cannot say they are unrelated while also relating them by the terms 'before' and 'after'.
Click to expand...
This doesn't address my point about different timelines in different dimensions being unrelated.
Tetsugaku said:
Sure, thoughts occur within time. If there can be some kind of non-temporal thought, then this isn't something we can conceive of.
Click to expand...
If we were eternal, how would time affect us? I don't believe it would.
 
Caroljeen said:
This doesn't address my point about different timelines in different dimensions being unrelated.
Click to expand...
It directly addresses that. I'm saying you have related them by placing them in relations of 'before' and 'after'.

Caroljeen said:
If we were eternal, how would time affect us? I don't believe it would.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by eternal? Infinite time, or no time at all? Thoughts clearly occur in temporal sequence just like anything else.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top