Jesus is GOD the SON...He is NOT the FATHER.

SeventhDay said:
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Note: You still have't explained or really commented at all on the meaning of "I had with thee before the world was"? Do you have an explanation?
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The explanation is in John 1:1 where we see the one God who was the Word and the clause "with" which is the Greek word "Pros" indicates towards because God in expression points to God himself and this is one God not two.

Now, how God expresses himself has its own agency which is Gid as a plurality.
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Hello, that's the Trinitarian argument. You reject the word person but then define what we mean by person. Let's simply the question. Was there an "I" and a "you", same God, before the world was?

SeventhDay said:
To got into this deeper consider that God is the only self-existent God who is eternal, but God is a plurality within himself.

All that is in God is in the anointed or in Christ which is all of the one Spirit that God is.

All that is in God is the expression of God within God eternally and this is in a Father and Son relationship and includes all that is in Christ. If you ready John chapter 17 carefully you will understand that God as plurality is the glory of God and is the Word which is Christ.
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You seriously sound like the Thomas Aquinas explaining the Trinity in Summa Theologicala.

God Bless
 
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Hello, that's the Trinitarian argument. You reject the word person but then define what we mean by person. Let's simply the question. Was there an "I" and a "you", same God, before the world was?



You seriously sound like the Thomas Aquinas explaining the Trinity in Summa Theologicala.

God Bless
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Yes, there is within God who has personal roles and that the personal pronouns for them are I and you and them in eternity and in time. However, the son of man as a person was in time and space and was a human role of the Son of God who is eternal. The son of man had a beginning, but the Son of God did not. There is no eternal begotten son of God, but the son of man was begotten in time and space.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In all these cases of the son of man there is no God-man or a man having two natures!

God bless you. :)
 
SeventhDay said:
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Hello, that's the Trinitarian argument. You reject the word person but then define what we mean by person. Let's simplify the question. Was there an "I" and a "you", same God, before the world was?
You seriously sound like the Thomas Aquinas explaining the Trinity in Summa Theologicala.
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Yes, there is within God who has personal roles and that the personal pronouns for them are I and you and them in eternity and in time. However, the son of man as a person was in time and space and was a human role of the Son of God who is eternal. The son of man had a beginning, but the Son of God did not. There is no eternal begotten son of God, but the son of man was begotten in time and space.
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What you are describing is what trinitarians call persons. You are a Trinitarian living in denial,

God Bless
 
SeventhDay said:
Yes, there is within God who has personal roles and that the personal pronouns for them are I and you and them in eternity and in time. However, the son of man as a person was in time and space and was a human role of the Son of God who is eternal. The son of man had a beginning, but the Son of God did not. There is no eternal begotten son of God, but the son of man was begotten in time and space.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

In all these cases of the son of man there is no God-man or a man having two natures!

God bless you. :)
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I and you for The Son and The Father has to be properly discerned and not as carnal minded see them to be two distinct Persons. The Son is the one came in our likeness (old creation) and in His resurrection He became part of the New Creation. Whereas, God as The Father is not of this creation rather He is beyond space matter and time.

The Son represents God's people on this side of creation.

Multiple Persons in God Theology is idolatry and mis-representation of God.

Rev 3: 14 “And to the messenger of the assembly in Laodikeia write, ‘The Amĕn, the Trustworthy and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of Elohim, a says this:

Col 1:15 who is the likeness of the invisible Elohim, the first-born of all creation.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, who, when he had by himself purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Trinitarians and Unitarians err because they read scriptures by just scratching the surface.
 
Anthony said:
I and you for The Son and The Father has to be properly discerned and not as carnal minded see them to be two distinct Persons. The Son is the one came in our likeness (old creation) and in His resurrection He became part of the New Creation. Whereas, God as The Father is not of this creation rather He is beyond space matter and time.

The Son represents God's people on this side of creation.

Multiple Persons in God Theology is idolatry and mis-representation of God.

Rev 3: 14 “And to the messenger of the assembly in Laodikeia write, ‘The Amĕn, the Trustworthy and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of Elohim, a says this:

Col 1:15 who is the likeness of the invisible Elohim, the first-born of all creation.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, who, when he had by himself purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Trinitarians and Unitarians err because they read scriptures by just scratching the surface.
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God is the Father and Son in the eternal Now and that includes all in Christ, yet God is one person not three or more. :)
 
SeventhDay said:
God is the Father and Son in the eternal Now and that includes all in Christ, yet God is one person not three or
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That's where misunderstanding of scripture is. In Isaiah 9:6 He shall be called (future) the Everlasting Father.

God transitioned from being Invisible to be completely in a glorified Bodily form. Scriptures gives us in title bits which we have to connect them together as a jigsaw puzzle:

Col 1:19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him,

Col 2:9 For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,

When did this happen? From His glorification.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

First as The Spirit He filled all things. And now having been morphed into our likeness and then in glorified Body He ascended beyond space matter and time to His origin as The transcendent self.

Scriptures are not easy to understand unless Yahusha Messiah gives us understanding.

His Sonship also ends when death as the last enemy is subdued (which for us is in time but not for God): 1 Cor 15:23-28.
 
Anthony said:
That's where misunderstanding of scripture is. In Isaiah 9:6 He shall be called (future) the Everlasting Father.

God transitioned from being Invisible to be completely in a glorified Bodily form. Scriptures gives us in title bits which we have to connect them together as a jigsaw puzzle:

Col 1:19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him,

Col 2:9 For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,

When did this happen? From His glorification.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

First as The Spirit He filled all things. And now having been morphed into our likeness and then in glorified Body He ascended beyond space matter and time to His origin as The transcendent self.

Scriptures are not easy to understand unless Yahusha Messiah gives us understanding.

His Sonship also ends when death as the last enemy is subdued (which for us is in time but not for God): 1 Cor 15:23-28.
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God's Sonship never ends and is and always has been in the eternal Now. The son of man identified with who he was as the Son of God taking on the role of a human servant and pointed to us of his eternal relationship with God who is his Fathe Yet, how many know who Christ is because he is Yahusha which is Yah that saves, and Yah is the only Savior and creator.

Now the Father and Son relationship is the God who is one. It is nor one or the other but both and God is not two separate persons. God has roles within himself. It is that simple.

There is no God-man which is blasphemous and makes Jesus' atonement a complete mockery!

Run away from the trinity doctrine which will shipwreck your faith!
 
SeventhDay said:
God's Sonship never ends and is and always has been in the eternal Now. The son of man identified with who he was as the Son of God taking on the role of a human servant and pointed to us of his eternal relationship with God who is his Fathe Yet, how many know who Christ is because he is Yahusha which is Yah that saves, and Yah is the only Savior and creator.

Now the Father and Son relationship is the God who is one. It is nor one or the other but both and God is not two separate persons. God has roles within himself. It is that simple.

There is no God-man which is blasphemous and makes Jesus' atonement a complete mockery!

Run away from the trinity doctrine which will shipwreck your faith!
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What you say is not correct according to the scriptures. The Sonship of Yahusha is to incorporate adoption of sons of men. When it's accomplished His Sonship ends:

1Cor 15:

21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a Man.

22 For as all die in Aḏam, so also all shall be made alive in Messiah.

23 And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming,

24 then the end, when He delivers up the reign to Elohim the Father, when He has brought to naught all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He has to reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy to be brought to naught is death.

27 For “He has put all under His feet.” Psa. 8:6 But when He says “all are put under Him,” it is clear that He who put all under Him is excepted.

28 And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all.

John 1:
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of the desire of man, but of Elohim.

There is no God-Man but God came in the form of Man (indivisible).
 
There are somethings we have learnt false things from our traditional teachers. A child of God readily gives up false doctrines as it's part of repentance and sanctification. One must hold Yahusha as our only God in the New Creation (in the age to come). Initially as a new born child, he sees everything dimly as through the glass.

Apostle Paul is using this anology from the OT, where there was a sea of glass made in the OT Temple. But the child grows to maturity see clearly that Yahusha is the only God in the New Creation.

How did God enter His Creation? It's The Spirit of God Who is transcendent God as we see in Gen 1:2. He was defined by knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Messiah - Gen 1:3 - day 1 of the beginnings which is defined by Apostle Paul in 2Cor 4:6. The same Light of Life enlightened God's people from the beginning. Without Him no eternal life even for OT.

The Spirit of God was not visible to our natural eyes unless He showed certain Prophets and others chosen by Him in Theophanies which are precursors to The Son to manifest permanently in a Body prepared for Him in heaven. He came in likeness of men of old creation in mortality. We call Him The Son of God. His Body was pure and sinless. After His death (first death) on behalf of His people He rose from the dead and in glorified Body without limitations.

Now Who is The Father?

He is the invisible Spirit:

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Those who insist that The Father is a distinct Person from The Son has to what Yahusha said to Philip:

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, “Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Spirit can never be a Person because He has no form. The Spirit is the point where Yahusha began as The First in Order. He wasn't Yahusha then but Yahuah. He transitioned from Yahuah to Yahusha by The Spit taking on flesh as The Son:

1John 5:
6 This is the One that came by water and blood: יהושע Messiah, not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the Truth.

7 Because there are three who bear witness: note

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement.

The Spirit, and the water and blood are not 3 persons

Water and blood are the elements of the womb. The Spirit is from above and testifies to Yahusha born of Spirit, water and blood without contamination of sin.

The artificial distinction between The Father and The Son are based on His decree as God in order to fulfill scriptures. There is no multiple Persons in God
 
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