1 John 5:7-8 Johannine Comma - Clement of Alexandria, Eclogae Propheticae 13.1

You just don't understand the principle of divine agency.

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him......
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
How do those passages nullify Ex 33:11? Just to be clear, are you saying because I am using this electronic medium to communicate with you it means that I am not actually communicating with you? So when a person calls you on the telephone you are talking to the telephone and not the person, is that correct?
Just because people conjure up silly terms like divine agency does not mean it makes sense. All you have shown is that God uses whatever he wants as a communication device or he can present himself in whatever or whoever he chose as the communication device. In any case, it would be God himself in there when he does that. Which is different from sending a written message or sending a messenger with a verbal message.
 
How do those passages nullify Ex 33:11? Just to be clear, are you saying because I am using this electronic medium to communicate with you it means that I am not actually communicating with you? So when a person calls you on the telephone you are talking to the telephone and not the person, is that correct?
Just because people conjure up silly terms like divine agency does not mean it makes sense. All you have shown is that God uses whatever he wants as a communication device or he can present himself in whatever or whoever he chose as the communication device. In any case, it would be God himself in there when he does that. Which is different from sending a written message or sending a messenger with a verbal message.
Angels are a communication medium, but more importantly, they are an agency medium that identfies itself with their principal (God). So in any agency situation, the agent (where a secret agent or a declared agent) is entitled to identify as the principal. This identification is clear from the record of the burning bush. In one verse it is the angel, and in subsequent verses God himself.

What you are calling a "silly term" holds the key to a lot of what you with your simplistic and naive views have yet to grasp about religion: so much of it is about agency cf. 1 Cor 11:3 God->Christ->Man. Substitute "principal" for head and you'll get the picture. Except that Christ is above the angels now.

How do you explain John 10:34-36 except in terms of agency?
 
Angels are a communication medium, but more importantly, they are an agency medium that identfies itself with their principal (God).
How does that nullify Ex 33:11?
So in any agency situation, the agent (where a secret agent or a declared agent) is entitled to identify as the principal.
That does not help your position since you just identify angels as God. Angels are not God neither are they identified as God. Angels are simply messengers. Just as a postman.
This identification is clear from the record of the burning bush. In one verse it is the angel, and in subsequent verses God himself.
You just exposed your misunderstanding...The burning bush is the medium used to bring the message the bush is not God. Since bushes don't speak you must conclude that the voice is the voice of God.
What you are calling a "silly term" holds the key to a lot of what you with your simplistic and naive views have yet to grasp about religion: so much of it is about agency cf. 1 Cor 11:3 God->Christ->Man. Substitute "principal" for head and you'll get the picture. Except that Christ is above the angels now.
What I call a silly term is a silly term. 1 Cor 11:3 does not support your nonsense. Neither does it nullify Ex 33:11
How do you explain John 10:34-36 except in terms of agency?
Agencies are separate organizations, providing services sir...John 10:34-36 does not say anything about separate organizations providing services.
Jesus is a servant of God, not a paid organization/agent. Believers are servants of Jesus, not individual organizations /agents. You are yet to show how those passages nullify Ex 33:11
 
Agencies are separate organizations, providing services sir
An "agency" is not the same as an agent. Of course an agency may become a temporary agent for a specific purpose; but equally there are agents that are wholly owned by and devoted to their principals. These are not "agencies." This is the type of agent I am speaking of. So in this sense, the Word is an agent of God (Jn 1:1), as are all angels (apart from evil angels).

I am not talking about the burning bush itself: I am talking about what spoke from it (angel in one verse, God in another).

I am not going to waste my time further. This spurious topic has got nothing to do with this thread. You have the record of an angel calling of heaven to Abraham: that's all that matters here.
 
An "agency" is not the same as an agent.
An agency IS an agent.
Of course an agency may become a temporary agent for a specific purpose;
An agency is an agent as long as it is in operation, that is why it is called an agency.
but equally there are agents that are wholly owned by and devoted to their principals.
All you are saying is that there are individual agents who are working for a corporate agent. But agencies down own agents. Agents work for agencies.
These are not "agencies." This is the type of agent I am speaking of. So in this sense, the Word is an agent of God (Jn 1:1), as are all angels (apart from evil angels).
So you are saying God owns the Word/Jesus? You just made Jesus equal with angels.
I am not talking about the burning bush itself: I am talking about what spoke from it (angel in one verse, God in another).
You are funny...You have to make up your mind. If God spoke from the bush why then are you arguing that God does not speak for himself?
I am not going to waste my time further.
You can't do that since it is your natural inclination...
This spurious topic has got nothing to do with this thread. You have the record of an angel calling of heaven to Abraham: that's all that matters here.
But you just said God spoke in another verse... So clearly you believe God spoke. and that is what matters.
 
Yes, it seems the correct translation of ".....ἐφ' ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν" is rather elusive to some translators out there.

As found on this WWW site, viz. "by whose witness and help the prescribed commandments ought to be kept," the translation is not accurate.

ἐφ' - By/before (Apocopic form of ἐπί)
ὧν - Which (genitive plural)
μαρτύρων - witnesses (genitive plural of μάρτυρας - witnesses - the persons)
καὶ - and
βοηθῶν - assistants (genitive plural of βοηθός)
αἱ ἐντολαὶ - the commandments (nom plural neuter)
λεγόμεναι - called/named (nom plural fem present mediopassive participle of λέγω)
φυλάσσεσθαι - to be under guard (Present Middle Infinitive)
ὀφείλουσιν - [they] are indebted (V-PAI-3rd Person Plural)

i.e. "....before which witnesses and assistants the called/named commandments are indebted to be under guard (i.e. to be kept).

Still have the problem of the use of the plural in EP 13.1, whereas there is but one name in the Matt 28:19, undoubtedly reflecting the growing influence of Trinitarianism: the polytheistic idea of God being also transferred into the Comma with the use of plurals (as contrasted with the singular in Matt 28:19).

Don't know if you noticed (you probably have) in EP 13.1 that δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων ... ἐφ' ὧν μαρτύρων?

μαρτύρων is simply pointing back to the μαρτύρων from Deuteronomy 19:15(B) LXX in the previous sentence.

The text is simply quoting Deuteronomy 19:15(B) LXX and Matthew 28:19 (with an allusion to Matthew 28:20 in αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν).

The Comma is not quoted at all, nor is it in view at all. That's the main point of my post.
 
Charles Forster has a superb section on the Eclogae Propheticae 13.1, and calls it a tacit quotation.

If you are trying to make a case against this being a heavenly witnesses allusion, you really should address the Charles Forster pages.
 
Don't know if you noticed (you probably have) in EP 13.1 that δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων ... ἐφ' ὧν μαρτύρων?

μαρτύρων is simply pointing back to the μαρτύρων from Deuteronomy 19:15(B) LXX in the previous sentence.

The text is simply quoting Deuteronomy 19:15(B) LXX and Matthew 28:19 (with an allusion to Matthew 28:20 in αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν).

The Comma is not quoted at all, nor is it in view at all. That's the main point of my post.
In EP 13.1, you have correctly drawn attention to the ingenious OT justification of the author, but I feel that his justification is creative eisegesis in aid of justifying a gnostic trinitarianism that had its origins outside of scripture.

This eisegesis entails a synthetic misapplication of the law of justice. For the context of Deu 17:6 is the putting of people to death by other human beings for sin. It has been accepted throughout history that God (singular) can do and does what he wants in respect of putting people to death, and is answerable to no-one.

Such a law cannot apply to God. If it could, God would be an aider and abettor to every criminal, just for allowing criminal acts. The further matter is that under the law, God is one.................
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Mar 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"
Gal 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."

........... and Jesus alleged only that God was his (only) witness:
Jhn 5:32 "There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true."

Every attempt to portray God as three entails a violation of the law. To reduce divinity (i.e. God) itself (as opposed to the earthly legacy of Christ) to the level of "human witnesses" is IMO blasphemous as involving breaking the commandment Deut 6:4 (the most important by Christ himself).

I rather see the EP 13.1 and the Comma as belonging to the same genre of gnostism and employing a similar eisegesis; although I concur that they appear superficially to have different underlying rationales: the Comma founded on 1 John 5:8, and EP 13.1 founded on Deut. 17:6. However it can be argued that the Comma is also founded indirectly on Deut. 17:6, given that 1 John 5:8 is implicitly related to Deut. 17:6 (but this much is permissible, as 1 John 5:8 is addressing the legal nature of Christ's legacy on earth).
 
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Charles Forster has a superb section on the Eclogae Propheticae 13.1, and calls it a tacit quotation.

If you are trying to make a case against this being a heavenly witnesses allusion, you really should address the Charles Forster pages.
In Charles Forster's "preface" to "THREE HEAVENLY WITNESSES: &etc"- a tedious and bombastic critique of his opponents, which diverges from the stated remit of the book -I see that he initially cites an argument surrounding the omission of υπέρ υμών κλώμενον from 1 Cor. xi. 24 in the new TR. But I can't find any reference to this exact Greek quote in the cited reference.

Can you find me a version of "St. Athanasius. ap. Galland. Bible. Patr. tom. v. p. 169" online that actually has these words attributed to Athanasius? (Δἰ οὗ σώματος παρέδωκεν ἡμΐν μυστήριον, λέγων· Τοῦτό ἐστί μου τὸ σῶμα, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον· καὶ τὸ αἷμα τῆς καινῆς Βιαθήκης (ού τῆς παλαιᾶς) τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυνόμενον). The one I looked up here doesn't seem to have these words, but only similar words.
_____________________________________________________________
.......... The uncertainty of any text founded on such
factitious emendations, is alone its sufficing condemnation.
To multiply examples of failure, would be
endless. But one specimen we may pause on, at once
so venturous an experiment, and so signal a breakdown,
that if it serves not as a lesson to our modern
editors, it may at least serve as a warning to their too
contiding readers: especially to that class of readers
most liable to be endangered by specious novelty,
and most likely, eventually, to endanger others—the
youthful theological students at our Universities. In
a recent critical edition of St. Paul’s Epistles to the
Corinthians, based on an avowedly emendated text,
of which it has been pronounced by high classical
authority that ‘the errors are sown broadcast throughout
the two volumes,’ I was startled and shocked by
one alarming emendation: namely, the expunction
of the word[s υπέρ υμών] κλώμενον from 1 Cor. xi. 24.

As this word occurred in the Eucharistic form of words
directly revealed by our Lord himself from heaven to
St. Paul, my attention was riveted by the daring
boldness of such a break in such a text. Knowing
by long and large experience the value of internal
evidence in such cases,—that the true touchstone was
the interna bonitas of the context,—I immediately
examined it, and found, as I had anticipated, the
received reading κλώμενον triumphantly confirmed by
its antecedent, 1 Cor. x. 16, viz., τον άρτον ον κλώμεν:
both terms belonging to the institution of the Eucharist;
and the one preparing the way for the other.

Entirely convinced myself of the integrity of the
received text by this evidence, after a long life spent
in the study of St. Paul’s style, I prepared to vindicate
the Textus Receptus: my only difficulty being
how to bring home to the minds of others the convictions
of my own. With this view I tasked myself
to simplify the proof: certain of the unsoundness of
the proposed emendation, and of its evil theological
bearings. The slenderness of the grounds on which
so grave a change was adventured, almost passed .
credibility. The editor’s avowed process was a balance
of the MS. authorities; and, holding the scales with
trembling hand, he pronounced the balance to incline
slightly against the κλώμενον, and on the strength of
this evanescent preponderance, decided against, and
struck out, a word which (if genuine) THE Lord God
HAD SPOKEN! Shocked by the levity and irreverence
of a mode of textual criticism like this, (however
unconsciously so on the part of its employer,) my
whole soul was bent on its confutation and exposure.

But it pleased Providence, most unexpectedly, to
spare my pains, by the recovery of this GoD-BREATHED
text, in its unrationalistic integrity, in the page of the
great Athanasius. Every catholic spirit will sympathize in
the emotion with which I perused the unmutilated
verse, essentially identical with that in our
Textus Receptus, as it is cited by this glorious champion
of the catholic faith, whose words deserve to be
written in letters of gold: Δἰ οὗ σώματος παρέδωκεν ἡμΐν μυστήριον, λέγων· Τοῦτό ἐστί μου τὸ σῶμα, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον· καὶ τὸ αἷμα τῆς καινῆς Βιαθήκης (ού τῆς παλαιᾶς) τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυνόμενον.— St. Athanasius. ap. Galland. Bible. Patr. tom. v. p. 169

[Trans: “Through his body he delivers us a mystery saying: This is my body, [the one] that for your sake is broken: and the blood of the new covenant (not the old) [the one] that for your sake is shed.” ]"

Comment is needless. The exposure of the professed
emendation is so overwhelming, as (were not
the integrity of inspired Scripture at stake) almost to
awaken pity for the unlucky emendator. St. Athanasius’s
MSS. of the Greek Testament were older by ~
two or three centuries than the oldest of the MSS.
now extant. His text of the Greek Testament is
evidence final and beyond appeal. And his reading,
κλώμενον, is a death-blow, not only to the rash emenadation at issue,
but to the false principle of judging
texts solely by the evidence of existing Greek MSS.’"
____________________________________________
 
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Δἰ οὗ σώματος παρέδωκεν ἡμΐν μυστήριον, λέγων· Τοῦτό ἐστί μου τὸ σῶμα, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον· καὶ τὸ αἷμα τῆς καινῆς Βιαθήκης (ού τῆς παλαιᾶς) τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυνόμενον.— St. Athanasius. ap. Galland. Bible. Patr. tom. v. p. 169

[Trans: “Through his body he delivers us a mystery saying: This is my body, [the one] that for your sake is broken: and the blood of the new covenant (not the old) [the one] that for your sake is shed.” ]"

Shouldn't Βιαθήκης be Διαθήκης, with a Delta, not a Beta?

Possibly a printing error.

This indicates that, possibly, Athanasius (genuine? or pseudo?) read, or interpreted a sacramental μυστήριον "mystery" into the breaking of the eucharistic bread, which was first given at baptism for new believers.

Interesting.
 
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Shouldn't Βιαθήκης be Διαθήκης, with a Delta, not a Beta?

Possibly a printing error.
Well spotted: transcription error.

The source says: Δἰ οὗ παρέδωκεν ἡμΐν μυςηρὶου λέγων· τοῦτό ἐστί μου τὸ σῶμα, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον, καὶ τὸ αἷμα τῆς καινῆς διαθήκης, ού τῆς παλαιᾶς, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυνόμενον.

(which is marginally different from the quote in the book by Charles Forster)

This indicates that, possibly, Athanasius (genuine? or pseudo?) read, or interpreted a sacramental μυστήριον "mystery" into the breaking of the eucharistic bread, which was first given at baptism for new believers.

Interesting.
But the authoritative text is actually the Armenian, as the original text only comprises Greek fragments.

' Letter to the church of the Antiochenes, concerning diverse works of theology and exegesis which he addressed to the hostile (and) in their opinions heretical followers of Arius.' (Armenian Title)

Translated into English from the Armenian (a more complete text) by R.P. Casey, in "The Armenian version of the pseudo-Athanasian Letter to the Antiochenes [Sermo maior de fide] and of the Expositio fidei," 1947.

Relevant Part (Translation of Armenian text)
"17. Now the thrones previously mentioned indicate the submission of all creatures and we have presented these because of that which says, “Sit thou on my right hand”; for the Dominical Body is meant. For if, “I fill the heavens and the earth, saith the Lord” as Jeremiah said, and God contains everything but he himself is contained by nothing, on what throne then does he sit? It is therefore to the body he says, “Sit thou on my right hand”, and the Adversary with the evil spirits and the Jews and the heathen became its enemy by which body he became and was called both “High Priest” and ‘Apostle’, which he also delivered to us in a mystery when he said, ‘This is my body which is for you and my blood of the New Covenant (but not the Old) which was shed for you”. But Divinity has no body and has no blood but the Body with which he clothed himself from Mary was the occasion of these remarks, about which the Apostles also said, “Jesus of Nazareth, a man proclaimed to you by God”. And Nazareth is called an earthly city in Judea but is not called heavenly. And from then on the Apostles call him Man and not God, for to Jews and those who like them give heed to the body. And the Lord himself replied humanly concerning himself when he said, ‘“Now you seek to kill me, a man who spoke to you the truth which he heard from God”. He did not say, “You seek to kill me because I am God’; for God is impassible and immortal. Wherefore he abolishes death and makes the dead live, saying, “I am the Life”. And Philip who believed straightway he heard, together with the other apostles and those who were similarly capable of spiritual advance, he teaches, saying, ‘“Who has seen me has seen the Father. I and my Father are one”. ‘I am in the Father—the Father is in me”. For if you perceive that the Father is great, you perceive that the Son also is great, for the Lord said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father’. He is equal in glory to him, for he says, ‘“This is the will of my Father, that they should honour the Son as they honour the Father’, so that as thou understandest the Father to be unbegotten, so shouldst thou understand the Son to be only-begotten."

1 Cor 11:24 "and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you [ὑπὲρ υμών]; do this in remembrance of me.”

1 Cor 11:24 (Apostolic Polyglot) "and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body for you [υπέρ υμών] being broken [κλώμενον] do this in remembrance of me.”
________________________________

So the Armenian text seems to give a different rendering (and exactly per the emendation complained of by Forster) to the Greek text in Athanas. up. Galland. Bibl. Patr. tom. v. p. 169. (don't know where it came from.)

Let's remind ourselves of the words of Charles Forster:

"Comment is needless. The exposure of the professed
emendation
is so overwhelming, as (were not
the integrity of inspired Scripture at stake) almost to
awaken pity for the unlucky emendator. St. Athanasius’s
MSS. of the Greek Testament were older by ~
two or three centuries than the oldest of the MSS.
now extant. His text of the Greek Testament is
evidence final and beyond appeal. And his reading,
κλώμενον, is a death-blow, not only to the rash emenadation
at issue
, but to the false principle of judging
texts solely by the evidence of existing Greek MSS.’"

Rev. Charles Forster - Hoisted with his own petard? (cf. Hamlet)
 
Charles Forster has a superb section on the Eclogae Propheticae 13.1, and calls it a tacit quotation.

If you are trying to make a case against this being a heavenly witnesses allusion, you really should address the Charles Forster pages.
The thing is that not even the Greek text in R. P. Casey's THE ARMENIAN VERSION OF THE PSEUDO-ATHANASIAN LETTER TO THE ANTIOCHENES AND OF THE EXPOSITIO FIDEI contains κλώμενον as alleged by Charles Forster. So he would seem to be out of his depth on the subjects on which he speaks.
__________________________
Of the Greek texts, R. P. Casey says:

"The Greek text presents a more difficult problem, since it is found only in quotations which have in some cases been badly manhandled by the excerptors. Schwartz sorted and published the text of the quotations in the Laurentian catena (Plut IV, 23) (E. Schwartz. Der s. g. Sermo mator de fide des Athanasius, Sitzungsberichte der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Phil.-Hist. Klasse, 1924, 6.) , but I have tried to get behind these to the original text by comparing them with the Armenian version as well as with the other quotations, Greek, Latin and Syriac. The extent to which my reconstruction rests on evidence or conjecture has been indicated in the apparatus. Since all their evidence has been presented in the text and apparatus of the Greek fragments, it has seemed unnecessary to reprint the quotations as such.

A word should be said on the title of the Letter to the Antiochenes. At least as early as the fifth century the piece was known both as a letter to the church at Antioch and as the larger treatise on faith. The title adopted in the text, ἡ πρὸσ ᾿Αντιοχεῖσ ἐπιστολή, is found in the catena edited by Schwartz from Vat gr 1431 and is partially confirmed by the Armenian version, by Facundus, and by a dogmatic catena accompanying the decrees of the Lateran council of 649. Facundus, Pro defensione triwm capitulorum 11.2, introduces three quotations from the letter by the formulae: ex epistula quam ad Antiochenos beatae memoriae episcopus scribit; in eadem epistula; and, Athanasius in epistula ad Antiochenos. The catena of the Lateran council has the caption ἐκ τῆσ πρὸσ ᾿Αντιοχεῖσ δογματικῆσ ἐπιστολῆσ, but follows it by a quotation not from the letter but from Contra Apollinarium II, 18 (5 P.G., XXVI, 1164 B).

The Armenian title is not easy to translate. I have rendered it literally, 'Letter of S. Athanasius, archbishop of Alexandria, to the Church of the Antiochenes, concerning variant theology and the analysis of works, which was addressed to the hostile and, in their opinions, heretical followers of Arius’, but the meaning ‘analysis of works,’ is not satisfactory. Cark‘ is properly an author’s works but the Letter does not take up the works of Arian authors for analysis, though it discusses problems raised by them. The suggestion may be made that the underlying Greek read λύσισ or ἀπόλυσισ ἀποριῶν, which is acceptable if the florid Armenian title be regarded as a transla- tion and not an elaboration of a simpler Greek superscript. The latter seems to me more probable, but I admit that the choice involves crediting the translator of the Letter with either a misleading translation or the gratuitous invention of an obscure phrase. Gelasius quotes the Letter under the headings: Athanasii episcopi Alexandrini in libris Contra Arianos*; and, Athanasii episcopi Alexandrini in libris adversus hereticos’, and these might suggest a connection with the end of the Armenian title, but the resemblance is not close and the phraseology is general and conventional. It appears certain that the Armenian superscript does not give the original title of the Letter, but doubtful how far it has deviated from the superscript of its Greek original."
 
Charles Forster has a superb section on the Eclogae Propheticae 13.1, and calls it a tacit quotation.

If you are trying to make a case against this being a heavenly witnesses allusion, you really should address the Charles Forster pages.
Let's look at some more bluff by Mr. Forster.

On pp. 200 & 201 of his "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" he talks about the "testimony of an early Greek homilist."

This is the unknown homilist in the Latin edition of Migne P.G. 63 (otherwise containing Chrysostom's works and various spuria).

This homily is entitled:
(short name) lN PRINCIPIO ERAT VERBUM (In the beginning was the Word).
(full name) IN ILLUD, lN PRINCIPIO ERAT VERBUM, ETC. (Joan. 1. 1) : ET QUOD SPIRITUS SCRUTATUR PROFUNDA DEl (1. Cor. 2. 10) : ET IN REGENS ILLUMINATOS, ET CONTRA HAERETICOS(*a)·

IN THAT, IN THE BEGINNING THE WORD WAS, ETC. (John 1. 1) : AND THAT THE SPIRIT SEARCHES THE DEEP DEPTH OF (1. Cor. 2. 10) : AND AGAINST THE ILLUMINATED RULES, AND AGAINST THE HERETICS (*a)·

Forster first cites the Greek words, εἷς κέκληται ὁ Πατήρ καὶ ὁ Υἱός καὶ το Πνεύμα τὸ "Αγων, seemingly extracted at random from this homily:
εἷς = cardinal one
κέκληται = Perfect Middle/Passive Indicative 3rd Person Singular of καλέω (call)

The Latin offered by Minge is: "Unus est qui vocatur Pater et Filius ei Spiritus sanctus."

i.e. [There is] one (deity) who is called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The context of the quote is:

2. Therefore, do not divide the indivisible nature, do not divide the substance, which cannot be cut, but accurately know its power. There is one who is called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For the Son says of the Father: "When ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power" (Matthew 26:64). When he said 'power', he appointed 'glory', so that you may marvel at his judgment. Therefore, calling him Father and God, he said to Caiaphas: "When you see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power." Power therefore the Father: power the Son, as Paul says: "Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24).

It strikes me that this passage is deferring to one power & one glory, (the power and the glory conferred on the Son by the Father), and it is also referring to:

Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (one deity) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
_______________________________

What does Forster allege?
Now
(1.) in this text, and in this text only, the three Persons are categorically pronounced to be one; and
(2.) in this text, and in this text only, the three Persons are brought together as witnesses, and not only as witnesses, but as heavenly witnesses. If these two propositions are laid down in the Homily, the author most certainly read them in his Greek New Testament MSS., and took them from their sole repository, the seventh verse.


My observations:

As to (1) above: "......the three Persons are categorically pronounced to be one......." is not made out. Rather, "they" aren't being identified as "three persons" in the passage cited, but rather as "one (deity)" with one tripartite name. This is exactly per Mat 28:19.

As to (2) above: ....later.
 
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NB: The translation of the full title is (I think) rather:

IN THAT, IN THE BEGINNING THE WORD WAS, ETC. (John 1. 1) : AND THAT THE SPIRIT SEARCHES THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD (1 Cor. 2:10) : AND IN THE KING OF THE ILLUMINATED, AND AGAINST THE HERETICS.

(What an involved title)
 
Before I progress with the topic in hand, here is the intro by Migne to this interesting homily.

Latin
Quem habeat auctorem haec concio,non facile percipitur, necnon quo tempore, qoa in civitate habita fuerit. Dictam fuisse planum est contra Pneumatomachos et Anomoeos Eunomiique sectatores, qui non ita pridem in civitate ista primas obtinuerant & Catholicos oppresserant. Quam rem ita describit orator hic circa medium concionis:

"Cum enim floreret impietas, cum hanc urbem devastaret haeresis, absumti erant Ecclesiae filii....... Verum hodie, dilecti, ejecta est pestifera illa doctrina, et ingressa est salutaris gratis."

Hic omnino videtur agi de pulsis a Theodosio Magno Anomoeis et Arianis, qui ecclesias multas Constantinopoli occupabant. Illud accidit anno Christi 380. atque adeo dicta fuerit haec Homilia anno circiter 381. quae item fuit Tillemontii sententia in vita Chrysostomi, pag. 392 et 587.

Ad hanc vero opinionem omnia quadrant. Nam Constantinopoli, ubi habita fuisse putatur Homilia, plurimi erant Pneumatomachi, et Anomoei multi, quos exagitat hic quisquius sit scriptor; hi ab Ecclesiis ejecti sunt: contra Catholicos tamen digladiabantur, quod etiam ad usque Chrysostomi tempora perseveravit, ut videre est in ejus contra Anomoeos Homilia Constantinopoli habita, Tom I. p.541 (col. 701 et seq). In fine autem homiliae, concionator totum coetum communis Patris & doctoris precibus commendat. Ille vero adhuc fortassis erat S. Gregorius Nazianzenus, qui eodem anno episcopatum "Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus" pacis servandae causa abdicavit.

Stylus omnino perplexus et ferreus, unde quidam illam Severiano Gabalorum Episcopo ob dicendi affinitatem adscripserunt. Verum haec Severiani concionantis aetatem praecedunt: neque ipse solus hoc styli vitio laborabat, ut saepe vidimus. Interpretationem Latinam Joannis Jacobi Beureri, quod ea "paraphrastice" esset concinnata, rejecimus, novamque paravimus.

English'ished (mainly though not exclusively by google translate)

It is not easily understood who the author of this sermon was, and at what time he lived in the city. It was said that it was plainly against the Pneumatomachi and the Anomoeans and the followers of Eunomia, who not so long ago had obtained the first place in that city and had oppressed the Catholics. About the middle of the sermon the speaker describes the matter thus:

"For when impiety flourished, when this city was ravaged by heresy, the children of the Church were taken away.... But today, beloved, that harmful doctrine has been thrown out, and a savior has entered freely."

Here we seem to be talking entirely about the beating of the Anomoeans and the Arians, who occupied many churches in Constantinople, by Theodosius the Great. This happened in the year of Christ 380, and so this homily was said in about the year 381, which was also the opinion of Tillemontius in the life of Chrysostom, p. 392 and 587. To this truth all things agree. For in Constantinople, where the Homilies are supposed to have been held, there were many Pneumatomachi, and many Anomoeans which, whosoever is the writer, here exhorts them; these were cast out of the Churches: yet they fought against the Catholics, which continued even to the time of Chrysostom, as may be seen in his Homilies against the Anomoeans held in Constantinople, Tom I. p.541 (col. 701 et seq.)

At the end of the homily, the preacher commends the whole group to the common prayers of the Father and the teacher. But he was still perhaps St. Gregory Nazianzen, who in the same year resigned the episcopate of "Patriarch of Constantinople" for the sake of preserving peace. The style is completely perplexing and inflexible, whence some have ascribed it to Severian*, the Bishop of Gabalus, because of the affinity of his speech. It is true that this predates the age of Severian* the preacher: he was not the only one who suffered from this defect of style, as we have often seen. We rejected the Latin translation of John Jacobus Beureri, because it was "paraphrastically" prepared, and we prepared a new one.

* Severian (an eventual enemy of Chrysostom): More than 50 of his sermons are extant. In Greek almost all of his homilies survive only among the works of his enemy Chrysostom. Several homilies, some of them lost in Greek, were translated into other languages (Latin, Coptic, Georgian, Armenian, Slavonic and Arabic, perhaps also in Syriac.[3]) Eight of his sermons were published in Venice in 1827 from an ancient Armenian translation by J. B. Aucher: six of them are lost in Greek or known only from catena quotations.[4] Almost none have been edited critically,[5] some have never been published, and the list is not certainly complete. Details of his works can be found in the Clavis Patrum Graecorum nos. 4185-4295. One is edited by Migne in the Patrologia Graeca 65; many among the spuria attributed to John Chrysostom (Patrologia Graeca 48-63). (wiki)
 
What does Forster allege?]
.
..
(2.) in this text, and in this text only, the three Persons are brought together as witnesses, and not only as witnesses, but as heavenly witnesses. If these two propositions are laid down in the Homily, the author most certainly read them in his Greek New Testament MSS., and took them from their sole repository, the seventh verse.

So addressing Forster's arguments in respect of point 2.

Forster has so far alluded to εἷς κέκληται ὁ Πατήρ καὶ ὁ Υἱός καὶ το Πνεύμα τὸ "Αγων == ([There is] one (deity) who is called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit).

Next Forster alludes in the homily to a second passage (far removed in the text from the first) which is curious because there isn't much similar to this anywhere else in the ECF writings (to my knowledge). This passage in the homily appears to be an exposition of 1 John 5:8 (not 1 John 5:7 as Forster makes out):

This quote from the homily comes from Forster's book:

δεῖ γᾰ́ρ τῇ ἀποστολικῇ χορείᾳ παραχωρῆσαι τὴν Ἁγίαν Τριάδα, ἣν ὁ Πατήρ καταγγέλλει. Τριάς ἀποστόλων, (<- Forster's comma) μάρτυς τῆς οὐρανίου Τριάδο

Notice that Forster puts a comma after Τριάς ἀποστόλων. I have checked Migne and there is definitely no comma after Τριάς ἀποστόλων. This is crucial to Forster's re-interpretation of this passage, because without his comma, what follows is a predicate nominative (PN) with an implied copula "is".

Parsing the passage without Forster's comma gives the following:

δεῖ (with personal accusative and infinitive - it behoves one to, it is necessary to, one must) γᾰ́ρ (for) τῇ (feminine dative singular of ὁ) ἀποστολικῇ (apostolic) χορείᾳ (fem dat sg - chorus) παραχωρῆσαι (aorist inf act of παραχωρώ - concede) τὴν (AFS of ὁ) Ἁγίαν Τριάδα (Holy Triad/Trinity), ἣν (which) ὁ Πατήρ (the Father) καταγγέλλει (proclaims 3rd person present active). Τριάς (three) ἀποστόλων (Gen. plural of ἀπόστολος - one sent forth - apostle) μάρτυς (testimony/witness) τῆς (genitive singular feminine of ὁ) οὐρανίου (ADJ GFS - of the heavenly) Τριάδο (Noun GF - of the triad/Trinity).

i.e. For it is necessary to concede the holy Trinity/Triad (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to the apostolic chorus, which the Father announces. A triad of ones sent forth [is] testimony of the heavenly Trinity/Triad (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

So what we can deduce is that heavenly Τριάδα stands for "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (called a Τριάδα but imputed as a singular) which is attested by the Τριάς (triad) of the ones sent forth (i.e. earthly witnesses). So this is an oblique reference to 1 John 5:8.

Now lets put Forster's comma back in. We get something like this:
For it is necessary to concede the holy Trinity to the apostolic chorus, which the Father announces : a triad of ones sent forth, the witness/testimony of the heavenly Trinity.

So by this "comma" artifice of Forster, the members of the heavenly trinity [each] bear witness by the ones sent forth. So we get an apparent reference to 1 John 5:7, out of what was intended as a reference to 1 John 5:8.

So without Forster's comma, it is the earthly witnesses that are bearing witness to an unindividuated Trinity, i.e. a single God. With Forster's comma, the Trinity is individuated and each bears a separate witness.

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Minge's Latin Text

Oportet enim sanctam Trinitatem apostolico choro concedere, quam Pater annunciat. Trinitas Apostolorum testis est caelestis Trinitatis.

For it is necessary to concede the Holy Trinity to the apostolic chorus, which the Father announces. The Trinity (should be triad) of the Apostles [or ones sent forth] is the witness/testimony of the heavenly Trinity.

Here the crucial word "est" is inserted by Minge. But he seems overkeen on the use of "trinity", employing it where the Greek makes a distinction in using Τριάς in place of Τριάδα.
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So this is the "Forster comma" as opposed to the "johannine comma".

Another error Forster makes is in respect of Τριάς ἀποστόλων (A triad of ones sent forth).

He says "The next step in the ascending scale is most remarkable, the phrase ἡ Τριάς ἀποστόλων
‘The Trinity of the Apostles.’ The expression in a general sense denotes the doctrine of the Trinity as
set forth by the Apostles, particularly by St. John, St. Paul, and St. Peter, as cited in the Homily; but
in a specific sense it apparently appropriates itself to St. Matthew xxviii. 19, and 1 John v. 7, where alone
the doctrine is categorically enunciated."

________________________

The above appears to completely misconstrue the sense of Τριάς ἀποστόλων. First, there is no (femine definitine article) which Forster wrongly inserts, so as to defer to "The Trinity". Rather the sense is "a triad of ones sent forth," being the water, the blood and the Spirit (being the earthly witnesses). It is they who bear testimony to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ( the unindividuated heavenly Trinity). But as to this unindividuated heavenly trinity, it is not further described apart from as previously: i.e. εἷς κέκληται ὁ Πατήρ καὶ ὁ Υἱός καὶ το Πνεύμα τὸ "Αγων == ([There is] one (deity) who is called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit).
___________________________


Forster is right in just one thing: ἣν ὁ Πατήρ καταγγέλλει (which the Father proclaims) is a reference to 1 John 5:9 ("We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son").
 
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NB: by unindividuated Trinity, I don't infer Sabellianism, but just a proper way to speak about the God denoted in Deut 6:4, i.e. as one heavenly witness: not in the sense that "the three are one," but in the sense that in heaven, there is but one concept of the power and the glory and the character of God, as characterized by the Father; and so one divine witness; but on earth a tripartite witness. In the idea of the author of this homily, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are very much distinguishable as "persons" when viewed in the context of their witness on earth, thus conforming to orthodox trinitarianism, but a more monotheistic and inflexible version than that reflected by the Comma.

The final part of the homily ends with this concession to the Trinity (as englished from the Latin):

Let us say the truth to the [heretics] with David: "They told me wicked stories, but not like yours, Lord." (Psalm 118:85). Accept the voice of Peter, the doctrine of Paul: "Christ according to the flesh rests above all things, blessed by God for ever" (Rom. 9:5). The Holy Spirit is to be adored, celebrated, glorified. We speak of God from the divine Scriptures, whether the enemies like it or not. Paul will be a witness to me when he said: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and who is it that dwelleth in it?" And, "The Spirit of God dwells in you (1. Cor. 3.16)." The temple, then, is one thing, and the one who dwells in it is another. Did you not hear Peter saying: "Ananias, why did Satan tempt you to lie to the Holy Spirit?" And he added, "You have not lied to men, but to God (Acts 5:3,4). But the heretics say: He did not call the Spirit God, but he says so because the Spirit was sent by God. He who insults the Spirit, he says, insults the sending God. But foolishly and thoughtlessly; for an atheist deserves no other appellation than that of fools. For, "the fool said in his heart, There is no God (Pslam. 16:1)." He did not say, as you thought: for, if the insults to the Spirit were referred to God as the sender, he should have said: You have not lied to the Spirit, but to God. This is true so far. For it is necessary to concede the Holy Trinity to the apostolic chorus, which the Father announces. The Trinity of the Apostles [triad of the ones sent forth] is the witness of the heavenly Trinity. Let us therefore mourn sincerely, and let us say, "Many become desolate, more than that which hath a husband" (Isaiah 54.1); or, like every heresy, which has man as its teacher, and not God. May we all, through the prayers and orations of the common father and teacher, with the apostles and martyrs, be united in the right faith, in Christ Jesus our Lord, to whom be glory and dominion with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Latin
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Verum dicamus illis cum Davide : "Narraverunt mihi iniqui fabulationes, sed non ut lextua, Domine." (Psalm. 118:85). Petri vocem, Pauli doctrinam accipe : "Christus secundum carnem, quiest super omnia Deus benedictus in saecula (Rom. 9:5)".

Spiritus sanctus adoretur, celebretur, glorificetor.

Ex divinis Scripturis de Deo loquimur, velint nolint inimici. Testis erit mihi Paulus dicena : "Nescitis quia templum Dei estis, et quis sit qui inhabitet?" Et, "Spiritus Dei habitat in vobis (1. Cor. 3.16)." Aliud est ergo templum, et alius qui inhabitat. Non audisti Petrum dicentem : "Anania, cur tentavit Satanas cortuum, mentiri te Spiritui sancto?" Et intulit, "Non mentitus es hominibus, sed Deo (Act. 5:3,4). Sed dicunt haeretici: Non Spiritum vocavit Deum, sed id dicit, quia Spiritum a Deo missus est. Qui contumelias afficit, inquit, Spiritum, Deum mittentem contumelia afficit.

At stulte et inconsiderate; atheo enim non alia appellatio competat, quam stulti. Nam, "dixit insipiens in corde suo, Non est Deus (Pslam. 16:1)." Non dixit, ut tu cogitasti : nam, ai contumelia in Spiritum referretur in Deum ut mittentem, dicere oportuisset : Non mentitus es Spiritui, sed Deo. Verum haec hactenus. Oportet enim sanctam Trinitatem apostolico choro concedere, quam Pater annunciat. Trinitas Apostolorum testis est caelestis Trinitatis.

Choreas ergo sincere agamus, et dicamus, "Multi fitis desertae, magis quam ejus quae habet virum (Isaiah. 54.1);" sive, quam omnis haeresis, quae hominem doctorem habet, non Deum.

Utinam vero precibus et orationibus communis patris et doctoris, cum Apostolis et martyribus nos omnes in recta fide versemur, in Christo Jesu Domino nostro, cui gloria et imperium cum Patre el Spiritu sancto, nunce et semper, et in saecula saeculorum . Amen.
 
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Apologies to Mr. Migne for referring to him as "Minge" (didn't actually know what that word meant till now. Probably Mr. Migne didn't either.)
 
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