A loss for words

[Markk]

And yet Joseph Smith said He did. Smith was lying. Going so far as to put it in your scriptures as coming by revelation from God. Millions of people have been, and are still being deceived by it. Lives were ruined, hearts were broken. Children were violated. And sincere people thought they were doing God’s will because a “prophet” told them it came from God.

That‘s a false prophet, Aaron.


Was sealing black slaves to you as eternal servants, instead of letting them be sealed to their own husbands/families, part of the law of adoption too?

Eliza R. Snow said his marriages weren’t platonic. She would know.

One of the most used scripture "quips" one often hears in the church is..."you will know them by their fruits!" What is ironic is that most often when you hear this by church members, it is directed at a random person or group, out of context. The verse in context deals directly with false prophets.

I was listening to a podcast that was discussing Joseph's marriages proposals, and how he used the promise of exaltation to not only the prospective bride, but in some cases her family. Lucy Walker was 16 years old...16, and Joseph was 37. I think of my daughter at 16 and it makes me really angry. He didn't care what age they were, he even went after older women, and to believe they weren't sexual is just missing the point of the practice and "promise" of polygamy in Mormonism.

The church has made the first step in admitting a small abstract of polygamy in Nauvoo and Joseph in the Essays, but it falls short in burying the Essays on a website, and need to start teaching it as if Joseph and Emma were love birds, dancing off into the sunset as the talk in question implies. Joseph predator IMO, and as you wrote ruined people's lives.

O was reading the testimony) affidavit of my GGGGM, who was married to our shared relative Edwin Whiting...and if there was ever a definition of a woman it is she. I will share it later.

 

[Aaron32]

I believe you are making excuses for the obvious. It is just beyond belief that every polygamous relationship, both Mormon and "secular" included sex, except for Joseph Smith.

In the case of Lucy Walker, Joseph threatened this 16 year old girl with the loss of her exaltation.

In the year 1842, President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said: “I have a message for you. I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.” My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me. He asked me if I believed him to be a prophet of God. “Most assuredly I do,” I replied. He fully explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. He said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family, that it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house, and form a chain that could never be broken, worlds without end. “What have you to say?” he asked. “Nothing.” How could I speak, or what could I say? He said, “If you will pray sincerely for light and understanding in relation thereto, you shall receive a testimony of the correctness of this principle. I thought I prayed sincerely, but was so unwilling to consider the matter favorably that I fear I did not ask in faith for light. Gross darkness instead of light took possession of my mind. I was tempted and tortured beyond endurance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me, that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother. Why should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father, I am only a child in years and experience, no mother to counsel [she died in January, 1842]; no father near to tell me what to do in this trying hour [he was on a mission to a warmer climate to help his health]. Oh, let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.

The Prophet discerned my sorrow. He saw how unhappy I was, and sought an opportunity of again speaking to me on this subject, and said: “Although I cannot, under existing circumstances, acknowledge you as my wife, the time is near when we will go beyond the Rocky Mountains and then you will be acknowledged and honored as my wife.”5 He also said, “This principle will yet be believed in and practiced by the righteous. I have no flattering words to offer. It is a command of God to you. I will give you until tomorrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

This aroused every drop of Scotch in my veins. For a few moments I stood fearless before him, and looked him in the eye. I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a living sacrifice–perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds. This was too much, for as yet no shadow had crossed my path, aside from the death of my dear mother. The future to me had been one bright, cloudless day. I had been speechless, but at last found utterance and said: “Although you are a prophet of God you could not induce me to take a step of so great importance, unless I knew that God approved my course. I would rather die. I have tried to pray but received no comfort, no light,” and emphatically forbid him speaking again to me on this subject. Every feeling of my soul revolted against it. Said I, “The same God who has sent this message is the Being I have worshipped from my early childhood and He must manifest His will to me.” He walked across the room, returned and stood before me with the most beautiful expression of countenance, and said: “God Almighty bless you. You shall have a manifestation of the will of God concerning you; a testimony that you can never deny. I will tell you what it shall be. It shall be that joy and peace that you never knew.”

Oh, how earnestly I prayed for these words to be fulfilled. It was near dawn after another sleepless night when my room was lighted up by a heavenly influence. To me it was, in comparison, like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud. The words of the Prophet were indeed fulfilled. My soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace that “I never knew.” Supreme happiness took possession of me, and I received a powerful and irresistible testimony of the truth of plural marriage, which has been like an anchor to the soul through all the trials of life. I felt that I must go out into the morning air and give vent to the joy and gratitude that filled my soul. As I descended the stairs, President Smith opened the door below, took me by the hand and said: “Thank God, you have the testimony. I too have prayed.” He led me to a chair, placed his hands upon my head, and blessed me with every blessing my heart could possibly desire.

The first day of May, 1843, I consented to become the Prophet’s wife, and was sealed to him for time and all eternity, at his own house by Elder William Clayton.6

That's a fascinating story. What is it to you if a person receives a spiritual witness that you don't agree with? It's not not anyone asked you to marry Joseph Smith.

 

[Aaron32]

And yet Joseph Smith said He did. Smith was lying.

Or maybe he was deceived. I don't know. Thankfully, it's not something I have to deal with.

Going so far as to put it in your scriptures as coming by revelation from God. Millions of people have been, and are still being deceived by it. Lives were ruined, hearts were broken. Children were violated. And sincere people thought they were doing God’s will because a “prophet” told them it came from God.

That‘s a false prophet, Aaron.

Thus could be said about millions that were manipulated by religion. We learn by experience. I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

Was sealing black slaves to you as eternal servants, instead of letting them be sealed to their own husbands/families, part of the law of adoption too?

Yes. Men were even sealed to other men. Are you going to now claim homosexual acts were occuring? Titus 1:15

Eliza R. Snow said his marriages weren’t platonic. She would know.

And she accounted for all of his marriages? That's interesting.

 

[Markk]

That's a fascinating story. What is it to you if a person receives a spiritual witness that you don't agree with? It's not not anyone asked you to marry Joseph Smith.

You are diverting. Again, Lucy was 16 years old, and Joseph was 37 and married. Are you really going to tell me that a 16-year-old girl can have a spiritual witness to marry a 37-year-old married man, let alone consume what Joseph promised her as being truth...you should be ashamed of yourself for implying that.

 

[Magdalena]

Or maybe he was deceived. I don't know. Thankfully, it's not something I have to deal with.

Yes it is. Those are his fruits, and that’s how Christ told us we could recognize false prophets. That is absolutely relevant to you right now.

Thus could be said about millions that were manipulated by religion. We learn by experience. I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

Not just “religion.” By false prophets, like Joseph Smith. You want so badly for the Book of Mormon and Priesthood to be true that you’re willing to overlook everything else. Including false doctrine that ruined so Many lives, including children.

Yes. Men were even sealed to other men. Are you going to now claim homosexual acts were occuring? Titus 1:15

Grow up.

And she accounted for all of his marriages? That's interesting.

She knew what was going on.

 

[Richard7]

You are diverting. Again, Lucy was 16 years old, and Joseph was 37 and married. Are you really going to tell me that a 16-year-old girl can have a spiritual witness to marry a 37-year-old married man, let alone consume what Joseph promised her as being truth...you should be ashamed of yourself for implying that.

So what the right age Markk... when does one begin having spiritual experiences of any kind?

 

[Richard7]

Ralf...that is the kind of rhetoric is why people are either leaving or looking for progressive way out of the LDS church. And why women like my great great great grandmother, who was abused and basically left to fend for herself, and children, by her prominent LDS husband. She was the second wife of five. Her Husband, my GGGGF, is honored in Utah county.

You blame that on polygamy? Grown up and see the world as it is, polygamy or not, abuse is not the result of plural marriage, its the individual Markk... and what is the progressive way out of church, does not make any sense.

Ralf where did you cut and paste what you wrote, it is obvious you did not just write it.

Yep I did Markk, little ole me did that...hard to believe a old carpenter like me can even debate intelligently...

But anyway, I'll note you believe Emma was more important than the thirty some odd wives that Joseph married after him, and still believe in a plural marriage system within the "kingdom of God. "

CFR please on where you got your info.

I have no source.... maybe you ought to review the old Testament again and the many wives and concubines... chuckle.

 

[Markk]

So what the right age Markk... when does one begin having spiritual experiences of any kind?

Ralf, if you believe, and are going to attempt to defend, that a 16-year-old girl can make a responsible decision about marring a 37-year-old married man, in secret, while being a maid in his home, which would also be a blessing to her father's house...good luck.

This is not about the spiritual experiences, it is about a 37-year-old man in power, who is already married, sneaking around his first wife's back marring and having sex with young teenage girls that help out their home. Remember Lucy admitting to having sex with Joseph in his home.

Also remember that Joseph was having sex with his other teenage brides in the home, the Partridge sisters.

 

[Aaron32]

You are diverting. Again, Lucy was 16 years old, and Joseph was 37 and married. Are you really going to tell me that a 16-year-old girl can have a spiritual witness to marry a 37-year-old married man, let alone consume what Joseph promised her as being truth...you should be ashamed of yourself for implying that.

I've had many of spiritual revelation where people did not understand. God's ways are not our ways. What impresses me is how openly she vehemently disagreed with the notion, and the spiritual experience changed her mind. That's HER testimony. If she was attempting to save face or normalize her belief, you'd think she avoid the taboo-ness of the situation altogether, but she addresses it head on.
How do you know your not being like Adam or the Pharisees, using your own moral judgement as if it should be considered universal? Should Paul have felt shame for eating meats when the cultural standard is to eat herbs? And now you're appealing to emotion (invoking shame) because I think differently than you? Can you see how this method of reasoning is eerily close to men themselves up as a light? Sorry, I'll leave it to God to tell me when I should feel ashamed.
This is the exact message of the Book of Mormon and the restoration.

"...their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men" - 2 Nephi 27:25

"...man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh— But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;" (D&C 1:19-20)

Some questions for you to consider: Why do you believe "kingmen" we fought against in the Book of Mormon? How is a nation of priest supposed to operate with only a Heavenly King?

As I said earlier, I personally feel Joseph might have been deceived, but judgement is be the individual and the Lord. And in case of minors, the parents as well. What did they say on the subject? If they're ok with it, what's it to you?

 

[Magdalena]

I've had many of spiritual revelation where people did not understand. God's ways are not our ways. What impresses me is how openly she vehemently disagreed with the notion, and the spiritual experience changed her mind. That's HER testimony. If she was attempting to save face or normalize her belief, you'd think she avoid the taboo-ness of the situation altogether, but she addresses it head on.
How do you know your not being like Adam or the Pharisees, using your own moral judgement as if it should be considered universal? Should Paul have felt shame for eating meats when the cultural standard is to eat herbs? And now you're appealing to emotion (invoking shame) because I think differently than you? Can you see how this method of reasoning is eerily close to men themselves up as a light? Sorry, I'll leave it to God to tell me when I should feel ashamed.
This is the exact message of the Book of Mormon and the restoration.

"...their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men" - 2 Nephi 27:25

"...man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh— But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;" (D&C 1:19-20)

Some questions for you to consider: Why do you believe "kingmen" we fought against in the Book of Mormon? How is a nation of priest supposed to operate with only a Heavenly King?

As I said earlier, I personally feel Joseph might have been deceived, but judgement is be the individual and the Lord. And in case of minors, the parents as well. What did they say on the subject? If they're ok with it, what's it to you?

We’re talking about young girls, being groomed, threatened and violated, all in the name of God. If you can just overlook or trivialize that in your zeal to defend Joseph Smith, then something is definitely wrong with your conscience.

 

[Aaron32]

We’re talking about young girls, being groomed, threatened and violated, all in the name of God. If you can just overlook or trivialize that in your zeal to defend Joseph Smith, then something is definitely wrong with your conscience.

Look at the words given the account provided. Does the person sound as an innocent child bring groomed?
The is what grooming looks like:

• Targeting specific kids for special attention, gifts or activities.
• Slowly isolating a kid from family members and friends – physically and emotionally.
• Undermining relationships with parents and friends to show that “no one understands you like I do.”
• Gradually pushing or crossing physical boundaries. This could range from long-lasting full-frontal hugs, sitting on laps or “accidental” touching of private areas.
• Offenders sometimes engage in partially clothed tickle sessions, showering with kids or sleeping in the same bed.
• Encouraging kids to keep secrets from their family members.

Please find the textual evidence that this actually happened, versus what you are reading into the text to fill your own narrative.
Moreover, my aim is not to defend Joseph Smith. I was in fact, agreeing with Markk, and he went on to say I was making excuses.
I am defending the right to personal revelation, even if it is abrasive to current cultural standards, and to be careful not to impose our own views to make moral judgments when both parties, and their families, are stating they believe it is God's will.

 

[Magdalena]

Look at the words given the account provided. Does the person sound as an innocent child bring groomed?
The is what grooming looks like:

• Targeting specific kids for special attention, gifts or activities.
• Slowly isolating a kid from family members and friends – physically and emotionally.
• Undermining relationships with parents and friends to show that “no one understands you like I do.”
• Gradually pushing or crossing physical boundaries. This could range from long-lasting full-frontal hugs, sitting on laps or “accidental” touching of private areas.
• Offenders sometimes engage in partially clothed tickle sessions, showering with kids or sleeping in the same bed.
• Encouraging kids to keep secrets from their family members.

Please find the textual evidence that this actually happened, versus what you are reading into the text to fill your own narrative.
Moreover, my aim is not to defend Joseph Smith. I was in fact, agreeing with Markk, and he went on to say I was making excuses.
I am defending the right to personal revelation, even if it is abrasive to current cultural standards, and to be careful not to impose our own views to make moral judgments when both parties, and their families, are stating they believe it is God's will.

It isn’t “God’s will” to pressure a child into thinking that her family’s eternal salvation depends on her sleeping with an already married man. That’s just evil, Aaron. Wake up!

 

[Aaron32]

It isn’t “God’s will” to pressure a child into thinking that her family’s eternal salvation depends on her sleeping with an already married man. That’s just evil, Aaron. Wake up!

Was it God's will to commit genocide in the Old Testament? You might not think so, but that's what they did.
Annanias and Saphira may have thought holding back a little tithing would have literally cost them their lives, but that exactly what happened.
I can't answer for Joseph Smith, nor for others involved. After her personal revelation, she seemed to be fine with it, she didn't seem to have a problem. (Maybe Emma did...) In any case, it's not my role to judge. God will execute justice as needed. All I can answer for is what I've received. The Bible tells me to stay in my lane,

 

[Magdalena]

Was it God's will to commit genocide in the Old Testament? You might not think so, but that's what they did.
Annanias and Saphira may have thought holding back a little tithing would have literally cost them their lives, but that exactly what happened.
I can't answer for Joseph Smith, not for those others involved. After her personal revelation with it, she didn't seem to have a problem. (Maybe Emma did...) In any case, it's not my role to judge. God will execute justice as needed. All I can answer for is what I've received.

That’s where you’re wrong. Christ told us it is our responsibility to judge whether someone is a prophet or not. And He told us how to do that. According to those instructions, Joseph Smith, by his own actions, was a false prophet.

You've fallen into the same trap of believing that your salvation, and that of your family, depends on what mormonism requires of you. That’s false. There is no difference between that and threatening little girls into polygamy/sexual slavery. You can convince yourself that just about anything is true, if the motivation or threat is high enough. Fear of losing your eternal salvation is a high enough threat. Pretty promises of godhood, etc., are enough motivation.

The problem is, it didn’t come from Christ. And He is your only way to eternal life.

 

[Aaron32]

That’s where you’re wrong. Christ told us it is our responsibility to judge whether someone is a prophet or not. And He told us how to do that. According to those instructions, Joseph Smith, by his own actions, was a false prophet.

First, your accusing Joseph Smith of a crime. Both alleged victim and perpetrator haven't considered it so.
(In fact according to Lucy's account, Joseph made a statement of prophecy and it came true in Lucy's perspective.)
Second, your supplementing your own moral judgment as if your morality is the false objective baseline of which we should measure.

You've fallen into the same trap of believing that your salvation, and that of your family, depends on what mormonism requires of you. That’s false.

False based on what?
This is circular reasoning.
What if a Jew said "You believe your salvation, and that of your family, depends on what Christianity requires of you. That's false."
How much weight would you give that statement? None. Believers don't follow counsels of non-believers.

There is no difference between that and threatening little girls into polygamy/sexual slavery.

"Marriage" is now defined as "sexual slavery". Noted. Care to post that claim on an OP?

You can convince yourself that just about anything is true, if the motivation or threat is high enough. Fear of losing your eternal salvation is a high enough threat.

True. That's what anti-mormonism does.

Pretty promises of godhood, etc., are enough motivation.

Or, according to atheists, maybe the promise of eternal life is enough. Oh how foolish they must think Christians are.
Projecting the imagined desires of others is quite revealing, isn't it.

The problem is, it didn’t come from Christ. And He is your only way to eternal life.

Fortunately, that's the message Mormonism reinforces.
But wait, you're probably thinking "Not the REAL Jesus". Because heaven knows we all need YOU to define reality for us, right?
How can you even think discern a prophet, when you can't even prove your claims with undisputed textual evidence, or at least have the humility to recognize your assumptions are assumptions?

 

[Magdalena]

Look at the words given the account provided. Does the person sound as an innocent child bring groomed?
The is what grooming looks like:

• Targeting specific kids for special attention, gifts or activities.
• Slowly isolating a kid from family members and friends – physically and emotionally.
• Undermining relationships with parents and friends to show that “no one understands you like I do.”
• Gradually pushing or crossing physical boundaries. This could range from long-lasting full-frontal hugs, sitting on laps or “accidental” touching of private areas.
• Offenders sometimes engage in partially clothed tickle sessions, showering with kids or sleeping in the same bed.
• Encouraging kids to keep secrets from their family members.

Please find the textual evidence that this actually happened, versus what you are reading into the text to fill your own narrative.
Moreover, my aim is not to defend Joseph Smith. I was in fact, agreeing with Markk, and he went on to say I was making excuses.
I am defending the right to personal revelation, even if it is abrasive to current cultural standards, and to be careful not to impose our own views to make moral judgments when both parties, and their families, are stating they believe it is God's will.

Joseph Smith told 10 and 12 year old girls that God gave them to him to be his wives here. That’s grooming and pedophilia.

He told 14 year old Helen Kimball that he had been watching/interested in her for several years.

He told one of his friends that a certain teenage girl had given him “more pleasure than any other female.”

And it’s not just a character flaw of Joseph Smith, that you can overlook and pass off. He wrote polygamy into your scriptures as a gospel principle. And he said it came from God. He gave himself carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with females, and made it an official eternal Mormon principle. Then he and Brigham Young made it a requirement. Men were expected to have more than one wife in this life and the celestial kingdom.

Do you have any idea how many young girls have been raped since then because of this, in the Mormon church and it’s offshoots?

That’s the reality of it, and it’s evil, Aaron. God wasn’t talking to Joseph Smith. He was a wolf in sheeps clothing that Christ warned us about. And you are deceived.

 

[Magdalena]

First, your accusing Joseph Smith of a crime. Both alleged victim and perpetrator haven't considered it so.
(In fact according to Lucy's account, Joseph made a statement of prophecy and it came true in Lucy's perspective.)
Second, your supplementing your own moral judgment as if your morality is the false objective baseline of which we should measure.

False based on what?
This is circular reasoning.
What if a Jew said "You believe your salvation, and that of your family, depends on what Christianity requires of you. That's false."
How much weight would you give that statement? None. Believers don't follow counsels of non-believers.

"Marriage" is now defined as "sexual slavery". Noted. Care to post that claim on an OP?

True. That's what anti-mormonism does.

Or, according to atheists, maybe the promise of eternal life is enough. Oh how foolish they must think Christians are.
Projecting the imagined desires of others is quite revealing, isn't it.

Fortunately, that's the message Mormonism reinforces.
But wait, you're probably thinking "Not the REAL Jesus". Because heaven knows we all need YOU to define reality for us, right?
How can you even think discern a prophet, when you can't even prove your claims with undisputed textual evidence, or at least have the humility to recognize your assumptions are assumptions?

Those are arguments from someone who is trying to justify evil. Take a good look at that. Until the reality of what happened to real people hits you, you’ll be stuck in it.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, if you believe, and are going to attempt to defend, that a 16-year-old girl can make a responsible decision about marring a 37-year-old married man, in secret, while being a maid in his home, which would also be a blessing to her father's house...good luck.o

Most historians believe Mary the Mother of Christ was possibly as young as 16 or younger, not married and her husband most likely they say was much older then Mary..... yes good luck Markk with your unsound claims... chuckle. Jospeh most like was between 28 and 49....

Main article: Nativity of Jesus
According to the gospel of Luke, a decree of the Roman Emperor Augustus required that Joseph return to his hometown of Bethlehem to register for a Roman census.[h] While he was there with Mary, she gave birth to Jesus; but because there was no place for them in the inn, she used a manger as a cradle.[78]: p.14 [79] From the age at which Jewish maidens became marriageable, it is possible that Mary gave birth to her son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age.

Mary, mother of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is not about the spiritual experiences, it is about a 37-year-old man in power, who is already married, sneaking around his first wife's back marring and having sex with young teenage girls that help out their home. Remember Lucy admitting to having sex with Joseph in his home.

What are you reading Markk, seems you usually deflect away from sound sources or embarrassed to admit the source... hmm ... as far as I'm concerned you made it up, so its very irrelevant or circumstantial at the best...

Also remember that Joseph was having sex with his other teenage brides in the home, the Partridge sisters.

And again seems you made it up Markk, no source good buddy...

 

[Richard7]

Those are arguments from someone who is trying to justify evil. Take a good look at that. Until the reality of what happened to real people hits you, you’ll be stuck in it.

Who created evil if God supposedly created everything... no answer I bet..

 

[Richard7]

Joseph Smith told 10 and 12 year old girls that God gave them to him to be his wives here. That’s grooming and pedophilia.

He told 14 year old Helen Kimball that he had been watching/interested in her for several years.

Chuckle, no source, nice opinion though!

He told one of his friends that a certain teenage girl had given him “more pleasure than any other female.”

One of his friends, how convenient to have known a guy supposedly without a name... do you know how ridiculous that sounds.. hmm

And it’s not just a character flaw of Joseph Smith, that you can overlook and pass off. He wrote polygamy into your scriptures as a gospel principle. And he said it came from God. He gave himself carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with females, and made it an official eternal Mormon principle. Then he and Brigham Young made it a requirement. Men were expected to have more than one wife in this life and the celestial kingdom.

Revisionist History or The New Mormon History, as the progressives like to call it... chuckle. Source please.

Do you have any idea how many young girls have been raped since then because of this, in the Mormon church and it’s offshoots?

That’s the reality of it, and it’s evil, Aaron. God wasn’t talking to Joseph Smith. He was a wolf in sheeps clothing that Christ warned us about. And you are deceived.

So how many Magdalena, how many have been raped since then.... facts and sources or be truthful and tell us its only you opinion.