A question Calvinists won't answer!

[armylngst]

"Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart........" Ps.95 and Heb. 3/4

This passage proves your understanding and theology to be contradictory to the word of God......and proves my theology and the things I have written to be true and not contradictory to the word of God. It is as simple as that. I feel sorry for you that you cannot see it......understand it.......know it.
And pretty much all your verses you think support your theology and proves mine to be false.......I totally agree with them, they are true and actually support my theology. Your error is not understanding that they are speaking to and about OBEDIENT children of God and not disobedient rebellious children of God.....like those who were delivered from bondage in Egypt, saved by the bood of the Lamb, walked through the water, drank from the rock....but are going to miss God's day of rest, just like many of God's children "today" are going to miss the Day of rest!
You just don't get it. You've been deceived. You are like the multitude of Jews at Jesus' time who likewise were deceived and couldn't see the truth even though it was staring them in the face. They aren't inheriting the rest of God, just like many "today" aren't going to inherit the day of rest, even some here on Carm.

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man shouldst boast. Paul's testimony is contrary to your belief in salvation by works. I John is contrary to your belief that there can be a such thing as a disobedient child of God who goes to hell. Why do you refuse to recognize in the Old Testament and in the New Testament that there was a physical Nation of Israel chosen by God, for whom God calls them His children due to this, and that there is a Spiritual Israel of which those who believed and followed God are part of the group mentioned in Ephesians 1:5, adopted children of God. It isn't that difficult to understand. What did Paul say of Israel? Not all who are of Israel are actually part of Israel. The circumcision of faith is not physical, but is of the heart. What is so difficult to understand about this? What did God tell Elijah when Elijah believed he was all that was left? God had an elect remnant that had not bowed the knee to Baal, and belonged to God. God's actual children. The wheat. Those you call disobedient children are tares. They are in God's garden, but they aren't His.

Why do you push salvation by works? You do know that Paul did not teach salvation by works, but was rather explicit in saying that salvation is by grace. You do know that Jesus said that He would not lose a single one, except we have you saying Jesus was/is losing them all over the place. The problem is that you aren't properly defining "child of God". Paul defines it. John defines it. You miss it.

 

[armylngst]

I do not deny Eph. 1.....or 2......especially 4!
I love ALL of God's word...and none of it contradicts what I write.
Why do you deny Eph. 4:14 +?
All those admonitions for God's children? Do you think God's children can walk in the vanity of their minds? Have their understanding darkened? Be alienated from the life of God through ignorance? Given to lasciviousness? Work all uncleanness with greediness? Don't quit lying? Be angry and sin? Give place to the devil? Steal? Speak falsely and slander. GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT?
You don't think any of that is possible? Really?
Now I know you are going to say something like, " yes they can, but they can be forgiven, Jesus is their advocate." Right?
But what if they are sinning and NOT repenting? What if they deny the Holy Spirit's conviction?
Do you think God's children can walk in the flesh? And like it? Of course they can and many do!
And I tell you the truth....there is a severe consequence for practicing sin. Prison time! Missing the Day of Rest, the millennial kingdom of Christ Jesus on the earth and being judged at the end of God's rest for their WORKS, and the disobedient life they lived is....will be a just punishment.
Not only , the fact that you do not know this, but actually argue against this truth is saying a lot. I would be concerned, if I were you. It is not a wise practice at argue against divine truth!

I John 1
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

If you say you are a child of God, that you have fellowship with God, but you walk in darkness, you LIE and do not practice the truth. You aren't a child of God. However, if you say you have no sin (that you are not disobedient) you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. We are not perfect, and will not be perfect until we enter the Kingdom. However, the idea conveyed in the Greek is that this sin is not habitual, and not a pattern. We confess, God forgives and cleanses from ALL (not just that which we confess) unrighteousness. Why? Do you remember everything you have ever done? Will God send you to hell because you forgot that you took a penny from your brother or friend when you were young? That's stealing. How about when you lied when you were a child. What if you forgot to confess that? Is God going to send you to hell for that, since Paul says that liars will in no way inherit the kingdom of God? That's legalism first off. There is a reason why John says that when we sin (though we are to strive not to) we have an advocate. The world does not, but the child of God does.

What you need to notice about John is... everything here answers your questions, and it is clean cut. If you are this way, you are not a child of God. If you are this way, then you are, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. Sin is disobedience. If all sin is cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then that is entrance into the Kingdom. However, you say there are those who are children of God, which by definition means they are walking in the light, who won't inherit the Kingdom. That runs contrary to what John says here, since he says that those who are sinners, those who are disobedient and don't repent... aren't children of God.

I John 2
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

Who says they know Him but is disobedient (doesn't keep his commandments) IS A LIAR and the truth is not in him. Whoever says he abides in Him OUGHT to walk in the same way in which he walked. You answer, which you deny, is right here. The children of God in the New Testament are those who who keep his commandments. However, they are not yet perfected. Hence I John 1:9. If you don't accept that, remember I John 1:10 says that if you say you have not sinned, you make God a liar. You are to be confessing your sin that God cleanse you of all unrighteousness.

 

[Oldsaint24]

Why do you push salvation by works? You do know that Paul did not teach salvation by works, but was rather explicit in saying that salvation is by grace.

Never.....got that? Never have I claimed eternal life is gained by works.....never!
Now try to follow this..... God's love, mercy and GRACE quickens.....regenerates.....spiritually dead children of men into spiritually alive children of God . We have absolutely NOTHING to do with this sovereign act of God.....pure GRACE. And once one is a child of God he/she will always be a child of God.....and.....and will live with God in the forever.
Now I ask you.....Do you see any works? No! So please do not ever think or accuse me of saying the eternal destiny of God's children has anything to do with works......ok?
Your apparent error is not realizing the difference between inheriting the age to come, the glorious seventh day of rest, the millennial kingdom.... and eternity.
That my brother/sister is the Satanic deception most of God's children have fallen under.
You all know you are children of God, but have been fooled into thinking you are going to automatically inherit the kingdom yet to come. You fail to realize, because Satan is so much more clever than the children, that WORKS......righteous works.....is how the children become worthy to inherit the kingdom yet to come.....not eternity.. but the marriage supper, the privilege to rule and reign with the Lord Jesus is by RIGHTEOUS WORKS.
Do you comprehend the difference?
Obedient children will inherit the kingdom.....the foolish, the disobedient, the rebellious, etc. children won't. The naughty children will be in hell ...prison for those who do not like the thought of going to hell.
So ....."Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart......" . You would be wise to not ignore what this passage is telling you!
These truths I have just written to you and others who may read them is God's mercy , before it is too late. 'Cause most of you have been deceived.
Furthermore, it is impossible to prove what I have written to be false or contrary to the word of God. The Bible supports what I have written as will the Holy Spirit.....just ask Him .
Oh, in case you do not know or have not figured it out....the naughty children of God will be redeemed at the conclusion of the millennial kingdom, after they are judged for their WORKS!
AMEN! God is so good......and just!

 

[armylngst]

Never.....got that? Never have I claimed eternal life is gained by works.....never!
Now try to follow this..... God's love, mercy and GRACE quickens.....regenerates.....spiritually dead children of men into spiritually alive children of God . We have absolutely NOTHING to do with this sovereign act of God.....pure GRACE. And once one is a child of God he/she will always be a child of God.....and.....and will live with God in the forever.
Now I ask you.....Do you see any works? No! So please do not ever think or accuse me of saying the eternal destiny of God's children has anything to do with works......ok?
Your apparent error is not realizing the difference between inheriting the age to come, the glorious seventh day of rest, the millennial kingdom.... and eternity.
That my brother/sister is the Satanic deception most of God's children have fallen under.
You all know you are children of God, but have been fooled into thinking you are going to automatically inherit the kingdom yet to come. You fail to realize, because Satan is so much more clever than the children, that WORKS......righteous works.....is how the children become worthy to inherit the kingdom yet to come.....not eternity.. but the marriage supper, the privilege to rule and reign with the Lord Jesus is by RIGHTEOUS WORKS.
Do you comprehend the difference?
Obedient children will inherit the kingdom.....the foolish, the disobedient, the rebellious, etc. children won't. The naughty children will be in hell ...prison for those who do not like the thought of going to hell.
So ....."Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart......" . You would be wise to not ignore what this passage is telling you!
These truths I have just written to you and others who may read them is God's mercy , before it is too late. 'Cause most of you have been deceived.
Furthermore, it is impossible to prove what I have written to be false or contrary to the word of God. The Bible supports what I have written as will the Holy Spirit.....just ask Him .
Oh, in case you do not know or have not figured it out....the naughty children of God will be redeemed at the conclusion of the millennial kingdom, after they are judged for their WORKS!
AMEN! God is so good......and just!

You claimed that the eternal kingdom is gained by works. That is eternity. Just what kingdom does the Son turn over to the Father after He makes all His enemies His footstool? Scripture says His kingdom is eternal, not temporary, and that He will reign for a few minutes... I mean, forever. The kingdom you say that the disobedient children of God will not inherit is eternal, it is eternity. You can't have it both ways. You may be trying to get around what John said in I John, what Jesus said through His ministry, etc. but scripture is clear. I see works because you are pushing a form of purgatory, where disobedient children need to go to pay off their disobedience. Where does scripture say anything at all about the redemption of anyone after death?

I already posted what I John has to say about any who do those things that you say makes them disobedient children of God. However, John says that they are liars, and the truth is not in them. They aren't children of God of any type. Hell is the waiting room for the lake of fire. Those who rebel and are rebelling against God. Where did the Old Testament saints go, who did not have Jesus sacrifice to forgive their sins? Paradise, or Abraham's bosom. They did not go to hell. The thief, where did he go? Paradise, as Jesus said, today you will be with Me in Paradise. It was once Jesus died on the cross that He led captive a host of captives. That is, there are no people left in Paradise. They all went to heaven.

Psalm 95
"
For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep [b]of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the [c]rebellion,
As in the day of [d]trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was [e]grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”"

What rest? The Promised Land.

Hebrews 3

"16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

So even the author of Hebrews says it was not because of their disobedience, but for their unbelief. Their disobedience was equated as unbelief. What is the main part of salvation, that we even get from Paul. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." If one does not believe and dies in unbelief, didn't Jesus say they are condemned already? Condemned to what, a future redemption, as you say? The children of God in the Old Testament did not go to hell, they went to paradise. If they went to hell, they were not children of God. They were the tares that were gathered up and thrown into the fire. They had no part with the wheat. Remember, binary. You are either part of the wheat, or part of the tares. You are either a sheep or a goat.

Can you give any scripture that shows the redemption of any sinner apart from the work of Christ? Can you show that there is any other way to the Father except by Christ? I mean, besides the way you showed above which is to be redeemed after everything is over, without having to come to Christ.

Consider the outcome of the belief you are pushing. Go ahead, live in the world, live it up. Immorality, have at it. As long as you became a child of God, disobedience is not a problem. You will be redeemed after the world is over at the judgement. So... live it up.

 

[armylngst]

Never.....got that? Never have I claimed eternal life is gained by works.....never!
Now try to follow this..... God's love, mercy and GRACE quickens.....regenerates.....spiritually dead children of men into spiritually alive children of God . We have absolutely NOTHING to do with this sovereign act of God.....pure GRACE. And once one is a child of God he/she will always be a child of God.....and.....and will live with God in the forever.
Now I ask you.....Do you see any works? No! So please do not ever think or accuse me of saying the eternal destiny of God's children has anything to do with works......ok?
Your apparent error is not realizing the difference between inheriting the age to come, the glorious seventh day of rest, the millennial kingdom.... and eternity.
That my brother/sister is the Satanic deception most of God's children have fallen under.
You all know you are children of God, but have been fooled into thinking you are going to automatically inherit the kingdom yet to come. You fail to realize, because Satan is so much more clever than the children, that WORKS......righteous works.....is how the children become worthy to inherit the kingdom yet to come.....not eternity.. but the marriage supper, the privilege to rule and reign with the Lord Jesus is by RIGHTEOUS WORKS.
Do you comprehend the difference?
Obedient children will inherit the kingdom.....the foolish, the disobedient, the rebellious, etc. children won't. The naughty children will be in hell ...prison for those who do not like the thought of going to hell.
So ....."Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart......" . You would be wise to not ignore what this passage is telling you!
These truths I have just written to you and others who may read them is God's mercy , before it is too late. 'Cause most of you have been deceived.
Furthermore, it is impossible to prove what I have written to be false or contrary to the word of God. The Bible supports what I have written as will the Holy Spirit.....just ask Him .
Oh, in case you do not know or have not figured it out....the naughty children of God will be redeemed at the conclusion of the millennial kingdom, after they are judged for their WORKS!
AMEN! God is so good......and just!

I will say that there is one thing that the fleshy part of me really loves about what you wrote. It tells me that I can live like the world, and since I am a child of God, I just have to do some time in hell, and then I get to enjoy all the benefits of eternal life. Thanks for that. (There isn't nearly as much sarcasm in that as you might believe...)

 

[Oldsaint24]

You claimed that the eternal kingdom is gained by works. That is eternity.

Wrong. I have never said what you have imagined I have said. You seem to fail in grasping the difference between the millennial kingdom, which has a beginning and an ending . The millennial kingdom, God's day (got that? day ) of rest is NOT eternity.
So start over and try and harmonize your theology with many of His children NOT making it into the millennial kingdom .
You need to pay closer attention to what I have written and stop allowing your presuppositions blind you from seeing .... comprehending the truth.
Oh...and you are not understanding Ps. 95. Correctly. The failure for the disobedient to enter into the promised land is an analogy for the failure of God's children to enter/ inherit the age to come, the millennial kingdom. Other wise the prophet David and the Heb. writer would not be writing about "Today"! Understand?
You'd be better off asking questions and understanding the truth I am writing than arguing/disputing over what you do not know.

 

[armylngst]

Wrong. I have never said what you have imagined I have said. You seem to fail in grasping the difference between the millennial kingdom, which has a beginning and an ending . The millennial kingdom, God's day (got that? day ) of rest is NOT eternity.
So start over and try and harmonize your theology with many of His children NOT making it into the millennial kingdom .
You need to pay closer attention to what I have written and stop allowing your presuppositions blind you from seeing .... comprehending the truth.
Oh...and you are not understanding Ps. 95. Correctly. The failure for the disobedient to enter into the promised land is an analogy for the failure of God's children to enter/ inherit the age to come, the millennial kingdom. Other wise the prophet David and the Heb. writer would not be writing about "Today"! Understand?
You'd be better off asking questions and understanding the truth I am writing than arguing/disputing over what you do not know.

So we continue to work in eternity? No freedom from sin? It doesn't talk about entering God's day of rest, but God's rest. No more working, no more sin, etc. No more toiling to survive. Do we have to toil to survive in eternity? Do we have to work? Or is it God's rest?

I think all of God's children will make it into the millennial kingdom, and those who are not his children will not. I mean, it is simple binary. You seem to still not understand that the Old Testament understanding of children of God, that is all the sinners and believers that lived within the nation of Israel being called God's children, since He chose the nation of Israel to be His people, and the New Testament, where the idea of the Israel the nation is swept aside, and we have the church, which is made up of only spirit indwelt children of God. And that includes spirit indwelt people of the nation of Israel who have been saved by Jesus. What does Peter say is the sign of the church? The Holy Spirit. The Jews never considered the possibility that the Gentiles would be a part of the same body of believers as the Jewish believers. Hence Peter's reaction when asking his Jewish brethren who would forbid these (the Gentile believers) the water of baptism since they received the same spirit as the Jewish believers. And received it in the same way, with the speaking of tongues.

I understand you are trying to make some underground way of avoiding facing the payment of sin and death by saying that God will redeem sinners after the millennial kingdom, but it doesn't work that way. (anyone with the descriptor of disobedient is a sinner.) In Hebrews, God, through the author, has made it clear that there is no place of repentance for those who have rejected the gospel, and remain in sin. There is no other way to be saved/redeemed. You are either a blood bought believer in Christ, one of His sheep who hear, recognize and follow, or you are a goat. Jesus will not lose a single one, and He will not cast the away. (No matter how many times you say He will, if they don't have the works to back up their salvation.)

I see that you believe that Jesus sacrifice is not enough to save, and so your so called "disobedient children of God" have to be redeemed a different way, but Jesus said there is no other way.

Also, I am a premillennialist, so I have a good idea what the millennial kingdom is, thank you very much.

 

[Oldsaint24]

So we continue to work in eternity? No freedom from sin? It doesn't talk about entering God's day of rest, but God's rest. No more working, no more sin, etc. No more toiling to survive. Do we have to toil to survive in eternity? Do we have to work? Or is it God's rest?

I think all of God's children will make it into the millennial kingdom, and those who are not his children will not.

We fully enter into eternity when we are resurrected, given our glorified bodies. Here is a point you need to realize, and what harmonizes scripture in particular Ps. 95 and Heb. 3/4 and the analogy of the disobedient children not entering into the promised land. There are two resurrections. One before the millennial kingdom and a second at the end of the millennial kingdom.
The obedient children will experience the first resurrection, will participate in the marriage feast, will rule and reign with our Lord and Savior during the millennium.
The disobedient children will not participate in the first resurrection but be redeemed at the second resurrection....having missed the day of rest.....the millennial kingdom.
Re read Heb. 3:15 thru 4:11 realizing the truth is speaking to God's children not unregenerates children of men who 1. Have not been delivered from bondage. 2. Cannot hear the voice of God.
You are only saying those who do not make it are not children of God because that is the only way for you to harmonize the scriptures to fit your man made dogma. But the scriptures and text does harmonize once you realize the disobedient, the rebellious children who anger the Father, are not worthy to enter into His rest....will be redeemed at the end of the millennial kingdom.
Oh, and right now you are showing a great deal of unbelief of God's truth that I have been writing.

 

[Oldsaint24]

I will say that there is one thing that the fleshy part of me really loves about what you wrote. It tells me that I can live like the world, and since I am a child of God, I just have to do some time in hell, and then I get to enjoy all the benefits of eternal life. Thanks for that. (There isn't nearly as much sarcasm in that as you might believe...)

What a silly , immature line of reasoning. In no way living briefly in the flesh....which will result in absolute torment in prison.....from the time one dies till the end of the millennial kingdom......will the child of God think for a second, it was worth it. Quite the contrary, when the disobedient, rebellious child realizes their foolishness there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth. And as the fire of hell purges off the dross, the whole time they will know that they still have to face their Lord and Savior at the judgement of their works. Think about this......Jesus, our Lord and Savior suffered an absolutely horrendous death to pay the ransom price for us to be redeemed. How shamefully do you think it will be for those who willingly chose to " trample the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant a common thing, AND INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE...." ' Cause that is what the disobedient are doing when they practice all their little sins!
The fact that you could even write your post should be concerning.

 

[e v e 21]

Can an unregenerate know God and glorify God as God?

What about the fact every soul from He knew before time ? That suggests a connection, no,
between a soul and Him?

it's as a first love the soul knew long ago
and forgot.... carried away by
this world , which came after that
but God calls His sweet souls back to Him
for He is our first love

so it's not really just all are the unregenerate
(if i understand what You mean by that)?

but that there are two groups
and one are of His souls...
for ever

 

[Oldsaint24]

What about the fact every soul from He knew before time ? That suggests a connection, no,
between a soul and Him?

it's as a first love the soul knew long ago
and forgot.... carried away by
this world , which came after that
but God calls His sweet souls back to Him
for He is our first love

so it's not really just all are the unregenerate
(if i understand what You mean by that)?

but that there are two groups
and one are of His souls...
for ever

Before the foundation of the world, before His children ever were, their names were written in the book of life. There are two identical copied, one belonging to Jesus, known as the Lamb's book of life.
It is in Jesus' book that the record is kept as who is worthy to be resurrected at the first resurrection and participate in the marriage supper and rule and reign with Him in the millennial kingdom. The disobedient, the rebellious children's names are blotted out of Jesus' book and will not have a part in the first resurrection but are sent to prison for the duration of the millennial kingdom for their just punishment.
Fortunately, their names are in the book of life (the other copy) and they will be redeemed at the conclusion of the millennial kingdom after being judged. After all, they are God's children and God does not fail.....but punish those deserving, yes.....but in the end, love and mercy.
God is so so good .. .....and just.

 

[e v e 21]

i was pointing out that a certain group ,
esau, will not be allowed entry to our eden paradise
but will go with satan for ever

permanent quarantine... grin...

and never make eden to fall again


esau (cf sons of ammon)
has lost the birthright he stole
by getting eden to fall
and which legally jacob got back

but now
very soon the fall will be Over.

 

[Oldsaint24]

i was pointing out that a certain group ,
esau, will not be allowed entry to our eden paradise
but will go with satan for ever

permanent quarantine... grin...

and never make eden to fall again


esau (cf sons of ammon)
has lost the birthright he stole
by getting eden to fall
and which legally jacob got back

but now
very soon the fall will be Over.

I will share a mystery with you. While Esau and Jacob is an analogy.....in reality Esau and Jacob is the child of God
How so?
The future child of God is first born corrupt, of the flesh as Esau. Then the child of God is second born, from above, as Jacob.
So, God looking down from heaven at the child born of the bond woman, He sees corruption, and hates the corrupted child of the flesh. It is not what He intended when He created Adam and Eve. But because of election and the promise, He regenerates a new child, whom He loves, born of the free woman. In this case, the Holy Spirit.
Thus we have, " Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated" and the older will serve the younger. A true statement before either had done any good or evil. Simply the corruption of the fall and a Heavenly Father making the promise come true and every thing right .the child of God is both, Esau and Jacob.

 

[e v e 21]

esau is a monster and will never see paradise.

 

[Manfred]

I point out the contradictions of everybody.....which reveals yours and their errors. We know the scriptures do not contradict itself. Your theology has contradictions.
Whereas I have absolutely NO contradictions with my theology.

Why do you run away from the parable of the Wheat and the Chaff, or why do you pretend it does not exist.

You are so transparent, everyone can see right through you.

 

[Oldsaint24]

Why do you run away from the parable of the Wheat and the Chaff, or why do you pretend it does not exist.

You are so transparent, everyone can see right through you.

I haven't run away from that or any other dispute. It is just that there is other issues I think is more relevant that I am addressing.
As far as your attempt to disprove what I have written with the parable of wheat and tares......I have NEVER said that unregenerate children of men do not exist..... They do exist. Some used by forces of darkness to lead God's children astray.
But....but as God deals with the tares He also likewise deals with His children who do iniquity. They will be the ones "weeping and gnashing" their teeth having realized how foolish they have been. Matt. 13:41,42.
Try again, if you must in order to keep your man made dogma in tack. Just think about it ... .what could be a more clever and more devious deception than convincing God's children that it is not possible for them to be cast into prison and miss the marriage feast and miss the millennial kingdom? Mull that over in your mind for a while. Because Satan loves it when God's children thinks it is impossible. It makes it so much easier to tempt them do all the little sins and think nothing of it. Like watching trashy, vulgar action flicks and TV just for one example. Ask yourself, is watching such trash and vulgarity with the eye, enjoying such with the mind and flesh... .is that defiling the temple of God? I say yes, and the reason I don't.
Question....will the Holy Spirit reside in a defiled temple? No!

 

[Oldsaint24]

esau is a monster and will never see paradise.

True if you are speaking of the unregenerate man. But not true if you are speaking of the regenerate child of God. Won't the elder serve the younger? Wasn't Esau reconciled with Jacob? Will not this flesh take on immortality in the redeeming resurrection?

 

[Manfred]

I haven't run away from that or any other dispute. It is just that there is other issues I think is more relevant that I am addressing.

No your whole op is based on not differentiating between the Wheat and the Chaff

As far as your attempt to disprove what I have written with the parable of wheat and tares......I have NEVER said that unregenerate children of men do not exist..... They do exist. Some used by forces of darkness to lead God's children astray.

So why call them children of God in the same sense as the children defined as "wheat" have the Spirit of God by which they are able to cry ABBA, Father. The tares/chaff even though they sit in church are not adopted as they do not have the Spirit.

Your premise is faulty, and you refuse to adjust your premise accordingly because then your whole theory collapses in on itself and becomes meaning less.

But....but as God deals with the tares He also likewise deals with His children who do iniquity.

Nowhere is that written in scripture, and this is a false teaching made up in your mind.
.There is a great distinction throughout scripture of how God is dealing with those who have the indwelt Spirit, and those who are blind to ant spiritual truth.

Do you see how you are using a faulty premise again to make your ideas fit with how you want them to fit.
Scripture clearly shows that God does NOT deal with the tares the same way He does with those who are in Christ Jesus through a newness of life.

Here are some scriptures that you avoid and have not adressed:
hp 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This scripture does not apply to the tares, but to the wheat who have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Don't you see that God who is greater than you or me or any man is the one who is working in the "wheat" to will/to want to work/do/obey

You are trying to convince people that it is dependent on the self, to generate obedience and to perform as you will be judged according to how good you were able to be. You are striving not to glorify God, but to glory in your ability of self achievement, of self restraint etc.

They will be the ones "weeping and gnashing" their teeth having realized how foolish they have been. Matt. 13:41,42.

Nope, it will be the tares/chaff. As per the parable. They are the ones bundled up and thrown in the fire.
So stop conflating between the two groups.

Try again, if you must in order to keep your man made dogma in tack.

Mine is not a man made dogma. I have presented clear scripture and not man made ideas like yours that God deals in the same way with both the wheat and the tares.

See here:
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

You have people treated the same way when scripture is clear that any one who does not have the Spirit of God does not belong to Him.

Those who do not belong, do not hear His voice, they do not follow they are not sanctified.
Those who belong to Him are under Grace, they hear His voice, they follow Him, they are being sanctified. They are convicted, they repent, they fall, they are forgiven, they are picked up, they are chastised, they grow as He teaches.

Your view of God is a very low view.

Just think about it ... .what could be a more clever and more devious deception than convincing God's children that it is not possible for them to be cast into prison and miss the marriage feast and miss the millennial kingdom?

Why would you spread such a lie?
Because you are so wrapped up in your one trick pony theology, you miss the intimate relationship that God has with His born again Children. The one where He is the leader, and where He convicts and chastises, in love, and where He continuously works in us to will and work for His good pleasure.

Mull that over in your mind for a while. Because Satan loves it when God's children thinks it is impossible.

It is impossible. Satan no longer has that type of power over those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
You have the Spirit of God powerless against Satan and his wiles.
We are told that we have to be aware of him, as he is like a lion looking for whom he can devour.
It brings, a lost sheep to mind, one who has strayed away, and the lion is ready to devour it. An Jesus leaves the 99 and goes and finds the strayed sheep, and brings him back into the fold.

As I said before, your lack of faith and trust in God is evident. You are that person trying to convince others that the good work He started in you must be finished by yourself. The fact of the matter is that due to your lack of faith, you have it the wrong way around.
He that started a good work in you will bring it to completion.

This is the biggest problem non-Calvinists have. They want to rely on the self and not on God. They refuse to credit God for the work He is doing in believers, they would rather credit themselves for being good enough, smart enough, understanding enough.

It makes it so much easier to tempt them do all the little sins and think nothing of it.

Nonsense. The Spirit of God brings conviction of all sin to those He indwells. He does not bring condemnation as you are trying to convince all.

Like watching trashy, vulgar action flicks and TV just for one example. Ask yourself, is watching such trash and vulgarity with the eye, enjoying such with the mind and flesh... .is that defiling the temple of God? I say yes, and the reason I don't.

Good for you. Why do you do it? What convinces you that it is trash? Do you think all Christians are unable to discern the bad? What makes you think that those Christians watching "trash" are not convicted by the Spirit of God, and switch off? I have watched some shows and at the first sign of Blasphemy I switch off, because I am convicted by the Spirit.

As I said before, your lack of faith in the work of the Spirit in the lives of the adopted Children of God is astonishing!

Question....will the Holy Spirit reside in a defiled temple? No!

Please quote the scripture that lead you to that premise!

Here is something for you to consider:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who walks in the light? Is it the wheat or the tares? We confess our sin, and He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So by all means, do not sin and be obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you have succumbed to temptation, do not try and justify the sin, but go to Him with sincere repentance.

This idea that Calvinism promotes a "greasy" grace where you can continue in willful sin and be blessed comes from people who lack faith in the ability of God to sanctify His elect in Love!
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

You write as if God will fail to achieve that which He predestined to be. You are a false prophet of doom, who lack faith in God and who rely on the flesh and self to achieve the impossible.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You come here and promote a false teaching of us being separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That the Holy Spirit stops indwelling believers when they fall.

 

[Oldsaint24]

No your whole op is based on not differentiating between the Wheat and the Chaff

So why call them children of God in the same sense as the children defined as "wheat" have the Spirit of God by which they are able to cry ABBA, Father. The tares/chaff even though they sit in church are not adopted as they do not have the Spirit.

Your premise is faulty, and you refuse to adjust your premise accordingly because then your whole theory collapses in on itself and becomes meaning less.

Nowhere is that written in scripture, and this is a false teaching made up in your mind.
.There is a great distinction throughout scripture of how God is dealing with those who have the indwelt Spirit, and those who are blind to ant spiritual truth.

Do you see how you are using a faulty premise again to make your ideas fit with how you want them to fit.
Scripture clearly shows that God does NOT deal with the tares the same way He does with those who are in Christ Jesus through a newness of life.

Here are some scriptures that you avoid and have not adressed:
hp 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This scripture does not apply to the tares, but to the wheat who have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Don't you see that God who is greater than you or me or any man is the one who is working in the "wheat" to will/to want to work/do/obey

You are trying to convince people that it is dependent on the self, to generate obedience and to perform as you will be judged according to how good you were able to be. You are striving not to glorify God, but to glory in your ability of self achievement, of self restraint etc.

Nope, it will be the tares/chaff. As per the parable. They are the ones bundled up and thrown in the fire.
So stop conflating between the two groups.

Mine is not a man made dogma. I have presented clear scripture and not man made ideas like yours that God deals in the same way with both the wheat and the tares.

See here:
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

You have people treated the same way when scripture is clear that any one who does not have the Spirit of God does not belong to Him.

Those who do not belong, do not hear His voice, they do not follow they are not sanctified.
Those who belong to Him are under Grace, they hear His voice, they follow Him, they are being sanctified. They are convicted, they repent, they fall, they are forgiven, they are picked up, they are chastised, they grow as He teaches.

Your view of God is a very low view.

Why would you spread such a lie?
Because you are so wrapped up in your one trick pony theology, you miss the intimate relationship that God has with His born again Children. The one where He is the leader, and where He convicts and chastises, in love, and where He continuously works in us to will and work for His good pleasure.

It is impossible. Satan no longer has that type of power over those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
You have the Spirit of God powerless against Satan and his wiles.
We are told that we have to be aware of him, as he is like a lion looking for whom he can devour.
It brings, a lost sheep to mind, one who has strayed away, and the lion is ready to devour it. An Jesus leaves the 99 and goes and finds the strayed sheep, and brings him back into the fold.

As I said before, your lack of faith and trust in God is evident. You are that person trying to convince others that the good work He started in you must be finished by yourself. The fact of the matter is that due to your lack of faith, you have it the wrong way around.
He that started a good work in you will bring it to completion.

This is the biggest problem non-Calvinists have. They want to rely on the self and not on God. They refuse to credit God for the work He is doing in believers, they would rather credit themselves for being good enough, smart enough, understanding enough.

Nonsense. The Spirit of God brings conviction of all sin to those He indwells. He does not bring condemnation as you are trying to convince all.

Good for you. Why do you do it? What convinces you that it is trash? Do you think all Christians are unable to discern the bad? What makes you think that those Christians watching "trash" are not convicted by the Spirit of God, and switch off? I have watched some shows and at the first sign of Blasphemy I switch off, because I am convicted by the Spirit.

As I said before, your lack of faith in the work of the Spirit in the lives of the adopted Children of God is astonishing!

Please quote the scripture that lead you to that premise!

Here is something for you to consider:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who walks in the light? Is it the wheat or the tares? We confess our sin, and He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So by all means, do not sin and be obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you have succumbed to temptation, do not try and justify the sin, but go to Him with sincere repentance.

This idea that Calvinism promotes a "greasy" grace where you can continue in willful sin and be blessed comes from people who lack faith in the ability of God to sanctify His elect in Love!
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

You write as if God will fail to achieve that which He predestined to be. You are a false prophet of doom, who lack faith in God and who rely on the flesh and self to achieve the impossible.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You come here and promote a false teaching of us being separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That the Holy Spirit stops indwelling believers when they fall.

So so many words and yet you are blind to the fact that many of God's children are disobedient and rebellious. And the fact you don't know this and are actually disputing divine truth that I have written is evidence you are among the disobedient......and don't even know it.
Hey , haven't you read where Jesus identified some of God's children who thought their theology was fine, thought they were rich and had need of nothing, yet Jesus tells us they were actually wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked! Ever read about those children of God, who you say do not exist? Hey, I just proved your theology false.....how ' bout that.
"Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart.....". Hey, that passage also proves your theology false.
Shall I keep on going? There's plenty more.

 

[DoctrinesofGraceBapt]

Can an unregenerate know God and glorify God as God?

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:5-8.

Unless one doesn't take glorifying God as pleasing to God, this passage would seem relevant.

With respect to knowing God,

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 2:1:21-25.

It seems only the called can know God through the preaching of Christ crucified.

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. Galatians 4:8.

So, not knowing God includes an enslavement that would imply some inability to do something.

In general, the unregenerate, those not saved at that time, cannot know God. Knowing God seems to be equated with having Salvation in these passages and others (cf Gal. 4:9; 1 These 4:5; 2 Thess. 1:8; Titus1:16; 1 John 4:8). By logic, that would mean unregenerate cannot know God. But, if one takes "know God" to mean something else besides having Salvation, the the question is left open. It would depend on what "know God" means.

Looking up "glorify God", I found:

1 Peter 2:12 - Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

So yes, the unregenerate can ultimately glorify God in some way. That may be through conversation, or in some unsalvific way. Either way, none of this contradicts the fact "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:8, which is the point of many of our statements.

Ultimately, I'm not sure how any of this relates to the Calvinism/Arminian debate. In every system, people are called by God and transfer from an unregenerate state of not knowing or glorifying God to a regenerate state of knowing and glorifying God. Your question is a question of definition and uses of phrases that doesn't really speak to what either side is talking about.

God Bless