pilgrim
Well-known member
Jesus was an exception wasn't He?
So exceptions exist.
It is appointed for all men to die once.
Well, we know there were exceptions to that verse also.
All the truth
- Thread starter dingoling.
- Start date
So exceptions exist.
It is appointed for all men to die once.
Well, we know there were exceptions to that verse also.
Arch Stanton
Well-known member
John 12:19 "All the world has gone after him!" Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?
Mt 3:5-6 "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins." Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?
Luke 2:1 "And an order went out from caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be counted." Was everyone in the whole world counted?
Rom 11:26 "ALL Israel shall be saved." Will everyone in Israel truly be saved?
Rom 15:14 "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge..." The only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is God Himself.
The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'.
So that could be the case with regard to 1 Tim. 2:4 as well?
Atemi
Well-known member
It doesn't seem your official church translators and language experts got that memo when it comes to Rom 3:23...
Official Catholic DR:
"For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God"
Official Catholic NAB:
"all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God"
Official Catholic NJB:
"No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God's glory"
Official Catholic RSV-CE:
"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Surely Paul meant "a bunch," right? Hahahahahahahahaha.
Atemi
Well-known member
Far be it from me to use their own words against them. ?
The RCC says that we cannot merit the "efficacious" graces, meaning the graces that are effective in saving us. These include:
1) the first actual grace (AKA God's calling)
2) the grace of justification (AKA the grace that turns you into a child of God by nature = rebirth)
3) the grace of final perseverance (AKA the grace whereby God makes sure you endure to the end)
You will not find a Catholic official quote anywhere that says that any of those 3 (the 3 that have to do with salvation itself) can be merited.
Here is a sample from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Not even heroic acts give a strict right to graces which are always efficacious or to final perseverance, for even the greatest saint is still obliged to watch, pray, and tremble lest he fall from the state of grace. This explains why the Council of Trent purposely omitted efficacious grace and the gift of perseverance, when it enumerated the objects of merit."
You say that if they go on to say that "eternal life" can be merited...then that voids everything they've said about grace, and it is illogical. But that's simply because you don't distinguish between salvation and the gift of eternal life given to the saved, or the being an heir and the inheritance of eternal life given to the heir.
Nevertheless, Paul says to various people that God will make them "worthy" of His calling, and they will be found "worthy" of the kingdom (the inheritance):
2 Thess 1:5
All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
God making you "worthy" of the kingdom (the inheritance) = God causing you to merit - not salvation, but the things given to the saved.
That's right. All the saved by grace will receive eternal life. And in being given this eternal life, some of them (those who suffered for their faith) might be told that they have shown themselves "worthy".
2 Thess 1:5
All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
That's true.
But it could be that some of the saved went on to serve Christ or suffer for their faith and are "counted worthy," and it could be that others did not suffer for their faith (e.g. a deathbed conversion) and so receive eternal life (because they are still heirs) but without being told, "You showed yourself worthy of it, for what you have endured."
People who are reborn but die before they suffer for their faith still receive eternal life, because of who they are: heirs.
The inheritance is given to the reborn, because they are children of God. Regardless of whether they have suffered, or have any works, or have any works that survive the testing fire of works. They are still saved and still receive the inheritance that belongs to them as children of God.
Catholic Encyclopedia under Grace: "for holiness and the sonship of God depend solely upon the possession of sanctifying grace, wherefore it is frequently called simply grace without any qualifying word to accompany it as, for instance, in the phrases "to live in grace" or "to fall from grace".
Faith is the beginning of human salvation because faith leads to receiving rebirth from above from God (rebirth=justification=salvation). So you are justified through/by faith. That means that if you were to die at that very moment of rebirth...you are recognized as a child of God and thus an heir and receive eternal life as your inheritance...even though you have done nothing (no service to Christ, no patient suffering).
If they are not changed and reborn, then they are not saved. That's Catholic teaching 101: "Unless you are reborn, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Many are reborn, but do not show much of it, that is also true.Somehow God does not change TONS of Catholics supposedly with that same "new heart and new spirit."
LOL.
So it must be something else....
I think deeds of the heart count as physical deeds. Any action that you take - be it a mental action or a physical action - is open to God's inspection and seen as fruit of who you are. That's why the man who committed adultery in his heart was considered as having committed adultery. The physical deeds are simply coming out of a storehouse of good or bad deeds. And most people live long enough to express them physically. When I read all the descriptions of the Last Judgment, I see physical deeds "done in the body" being mostly looked at, although Paul also refers to being judged by "the secrets of the heart."
Take this quote from Paul:
Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
God justifies you through something you do quietly internally in your heart: you believe.
You are saved by the physical deed of declaring it with your mouth.
You are justified by believing, and saved at the Last Judgment by the physical declaration with your mouth.
But if you were a mute, or died without being able to declare that God is Lord with your mouth, God would still know you are His child.
In the General Judgment, the use of works is indeed for others to see. God is saying, "I will show them that you are worthy by your works." In this way, God is vindicated and shown to be true in His judgment, and all will agree.
Romans : " it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved"
The people at the General Judgment are saying, "How come they are considered the heirs and we are not?" God shows them everyone's works, and the people agree that the saved are indeed the children of God.
God made them His children with His own nature (God is love, and the Spirit pours love into us) by grace (merited by Jesus for them)...and has made them able to pass the judgment.
If they are not reborn and are not by nature children of God when they die, then they are not heirs.
The numbers don't matter. The criterion is what matters. "What matters is a new creation."
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dingoling.
Well-known member
The nCCs forget that for them the final authority is scripture and not their own personal interpretation of scripture.
dingoling.
Well-known member
Scripture says that Adam named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all living.
How was Eve the mother of all living?
You forget we have the HS interpretation of scripture, far above the false interpretations of the evil leaders of the RCC.
Next you will tell us Eve is mother nature.
pilgrim
Well-known member
No. Why? All were created by God in His image. How can God hate the works of His hands and his own image? He sees Himself in us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
dingoling.
Well-known member
You have the Holy Spirit's interpretation of scripture? Really?
dingoling.
Well-known member
I am giving you what scripture says.
Atemi
Well-known member
Next time you can at least try to refute what I posted.
Atemi
Well-known member
That may sound funny to us, but I have heard devout Catholics make claims just like that....since they don't believe Eve actually existed.
Atemi
Well-known member
We thought as much.
Are you guaranteed eternal life or do you not believe in Jesus?
Pick.
He certainly teaches me when I am reading the Word. Better than what the leaders of the RCC ever did for me. They teach false doctrines and practices and follow pagan forms of worship.
That does not sound particularly consistent to me.
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Rom. 9:11–13)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Rom. 9:18)
pilgrim
Well-known member
As for Esau, as I understand it, Hebrew at that time did not have words of comparison ( e.g. more/less). I believe God meant that He loved Jacob more than Esau.
And for God saying that He hardens whom He wants, such as Pharaoh, He is saying that He is withdrawing grace from them. God doesn't hate anyone. God is love.