Answering questions from Johnathan regarding the angel of the Lord.

Man does not receive a 'human spirit' until he is born again. Jesus was not telling Nicodemus about receiving the Holy Spirit, but a human spirit when he enters regeneration. A human spirit which is "begotten" by the Holy Spirit.

Please. don't let 'word usage' throw you. We use the words like 'spirit' today that will change in meaning according to the context in which it appears. Same thing back then.

A regenerate person is trichotomous. He became 'body, soul, and (human) spirit."

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23​

The Holy Spirit is always blameless. Therefore, 1 Thes 5:23 can not be referring to the Holy Spirit. Its about body, soul and the 'human spirit.'


grace and peace ........
I understand what you are saying but I respectfully disagree.
I believe a human is spirit, soul, and body. In another place it is called the inner man and the outer man. The outer man perishes when we die but our inner man [spirit, soul] lives on.
I understand being born again of the water and Spirit to be the baptisms.
This thread isn't a good place to discuss this subject.
 
I've had a short correspondence with him about the article, in which he said "Just to clarify, my position is not that the angel of the YHWH is Jesus per se, but that YHWH always had a visible image called the angel of YHWH but gave up that angelic image to assume a human image in the incarnation. The human image is named Jesus. The angelic image was not."

I was wondering what you thought about the last part in which he makes it seem like the angelic image was only a temporary vehicle for YHWH until the Son was born. Would "gave up that angelic image" mean the angel died? Or would it be that the angel went back to being an ordinary angel when YHWH became a man. I haven't asked him this yet. It's something I've been thinking about.
I would understand "gave up that angelic image" as a reference to simply no longer manifesting in that form but rather in another (ie. the "human image"). Aside from being purely speculative, the "angelic" and "human" images are indistinguishable to observers in Hebrew Bible narrative... for example, the two angels who lead Lot and his daughters out of Sodom are thought to be men by both the mob (Gen 19:5) and Lot (19:8), as well as referred to by the narrator as men (Gen 19:10,12,16). They also have corporeal form like humans, able to seize Lot's family and lead them out of the city by hand (19:16) and earlier they ate what Abraham's wife and servant prepared for them (18:8) --- the author of the article even slips up and refers to the third guest at that meal as "YHWH appear[ing] to Abraham ... in the form of a human being." He repeats this self-contradictory claim several times in the article so if he is (now?) trying to differentiate them or split hairs between "form" and "image", he would need to rewrite it and add sections to justify all this.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was asking about YHWH having the angel of the LORD as a temporary manifestation in the OT until the Son of God was born who is the permanent manifestation of YHWH. I wasn't trying to differentiate between an angel and the angel.
While I can appreciate you've made no overt attempt to differentiate, such seems to be embedded even in your comments above... you refer to YHWH having "the angel of the LORD as a temporary manifestation in the OT until the Son of God was born" --- would you be comfortable substituting that YHWH appeared as "an angel of the LORD" in your sentence and, turning attention to the New Testament, that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to Joseph in dreams and likewise that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to shepherds, both following the birth of Jesus? If so, fair enough, we can forgo any further discussion revolving around the an/the differential. If not, why not?

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
How would you interpret Malachi 3:1-6 Hakkore, I'm just curious about that.

Does that seem like an angel or prophet to you, the language is pretty strong.
 
Hi Jonathan! In regards to, "I am in full agreement with your second statement, how do you know?
Based on a thorough analysis of the narratives in which angels speak and act on behalf of the Israelite deity, which we will explore all in good time.

And to your other statement, it will be easy for me because this is "Sunday School" stuff.
I don't suspect you're going to (Sunday) school me in this thread, but you are certainly welcome to try!

Just a "tease" to let you know I will be responding very soon.
I look forward to your response... feel free to take your time, I'm in no rush.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
I understand what you are saying but I respectfully disagree.
I believe a human is spirit, soul, and body. In another place it is called the inner man and the outer man. The outer man perishes when we die but our inner man [spirit, soul] lives on.
I understand being born again of the water and Spirit to be the baptisms.
This thread isn't a good place to discuss this subject.
.... Your opinion reigns...
 
I would understand "gave up that angelic image" as a reference to simply no longer manifesting in that form but rather in another (ie. the "human image"). Aside from being purely speculative, the "angelic" and "human" images are indistinguishable to observers in Hebrew Bible narrative... for example, the two angels who lead Lot and his daughters out of Sodom are thought to be men by both the mob (Gen 19:5) and Lot (19:8), as well as referred to by the narrator as men (Gen 19:10,12,16). They also have corporeal form like humans, able to seize Lot's family and lead them out of the city by hand (19:16) and earlier they ate what Abraham's wife and servant prepared for them (18:8) --- the author of the article even slips up and refers to the third guest at that meal as "YHWH appear[ing] to Abraham ... in the form of a human being." He repeats this self-contradictory claim several times in the article so if he is (now?) trying to differentiate them or split hairs between "form" and "image", he would need to rewrite it and add sections to justify all this.
The human image of God, Jesus, is eternal now. The angelic image no longer exists as far as I can tell. Unless God used the angelic form as a temporary manifestation and not an incarnation as a angel. I suppose it is simpler to understand the OT angel of the Lord as an angel from the Lord who had authority to speak in his name.

To be fair, Jason wrote about YHWH's appearing in different forms apart from "the Angel of the YHWH" in his article.
While I can appreciate you've made no overt attempt to differentiate, such seems to be embedded even in your comments above... you refer to YHWH having "the angel of the LORD as a temporary manifestation in the OT until the Son of God was born" --- would you be comfortable substituting that YHWH appeared as "an angel of the LORD" in your sentence and, turning attention to the New Testament, that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to Joseph in dreams and likewise that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to shepherds, both following the birth of Jesus? If so, fair enough, we can forgo any further discussion revolving around the an/the differential. If not, why not?
The angels that visited Joseph in dreams and appeared to the shepherds did not speak to them as YHWH in the first person. They sounded like they were angels delivering messages to them.

Whereas in Gen 22: 10-18 Jason highlighted the words in which the angel of the LORD speaks in the first person as YHWH and explained it below. It makes you wonder what is going on. Is it YHWH or an angel from YHWH. I've always found these somewhat confusing. You think it is angel speaking and then it sounds like YHWH himself is speaking.

"10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” … 15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

The angel refers to “God” in the third person (v. 12), distinguishing himself from God. He said “now I know that you fear God,” not “now I know that you fear me.” This would appear to be a clear indication that the angel of YHWH is personally distinct from YHWH. However, in the same breath, he goes on to say “seeing that you have not withheld your son…from me.” In saying this, the angel identifies himself as YHWH since it was YHWH who told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. From that point on, the angel speaks in the first person as if he is YHWH himself, referring to Himself as “myself” and “my voice.”"

As far as I'm concerned we can forgo any further discussion revolving around the an/the differential. I had no desire to go there in the first place.
 
I suppose it is simpler to understand the OT angel of the Lord as an angel from the Lord who had authority to speak in his name.
Indeed... no hermeneutical contortions necessary.

To be fair, Jason wrote about YHWH's appearing in different forms apart from "the Angel of the YHWH" in his article.
Um, no... he claimed "the angel was YHWH's visible form" and "[t]he angel of YHWH must be YHWH Himself in a human-like form." If he has now gone on to differentiate human and angel forms/images, my latest criticism stands along with my previous ones.

The angels that visited Joseph in dreams and appeared to the shepherds did not speak to them as YHWH in the first person. They sounded like they were angels delivering messages to them.

Whereas in Gen 22: 10-18 Jason highlighted the words in which the angel of the LORD speaks in the first person as YHWH and explained it below. It makes you wonder what is going on. Is it YHWH or an angel from YHWH. I've always found these somewhat confusing. You think it is angel speaking and then it sounds like YHWH himself is speaking.

"10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” … 15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

The angel refers to “God” in the third person (v. 12), distinguishing himself from God. He said “now I know that you fear God,” not “now I know that you fear me.” This would appear to be a clear indication that the angel of YHWH is personally distinct from YHWH. However, in the same breath, he goes on to say “seeing that you have not withheld your son…from me.” In saying this, the angel identifies himself as YHWH since it was YHWH who told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. From that point on, the angel speaks in the first person as if he is YHWH himself, referring to Himself as “myself” and “my voice.”"
In other words, the evidence points in different directions... you seem to have either (1) a deity with a penchant for sometimes talking about himself in the third person or (2) a subordinate who sometimes delivers his master's script as it was dictated to him while acknowledging from time to time he is only the messenger, which is literally what the Hebrew מלאך (mal'ach) means. There is, of course, the third option that the rhetoric of (2) or less likely (1) is at the level of the various authors of these texts rather than verbal reminisces of the characters therein.

As far as I'm concerned we can forgo any further discussion revolving around the an/the differential. I had no desire to go there in the first place.
Such is your prerogative, though failure to answer my question is duly noted.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
Indeed... no hermeneutical contortions necessary.


Um, no... he claimed "the angel was YHWH's visible form" and "[t]he angel of YHWH must be YHWH Himself in a human-like form." If he has now gone on to differentiate human and angel forms/images, my latest criticism stands along with my previous ones.


In other words, the evidence points in different directions... you seem to have either (1) a deity with a penchant for sometimes talking about himself in the third person or (2) a subordinate who sometimes delivers his master's script as it was dictated to him while acknowledging from time to time he is only the messenger, which is literally what the Hebrew מלאך (mal'ach) means. There is, of course, the third option that the rhetoric of (2) or less likely (1) is at the level of the various authors of these texts rather than verbal reminisces of the characters therein.


Such is your prerogative, though failure to answer my question is duly noted.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
You are denying the truth and taking pleasure in the influence you hold over some. Enjoy your vanity while you can.

An angel is an angel. A man is a man. Jesus spoke as God, being as God. The Angel of Jehovah spoke as God, being as God.

Its time we realize the impact of the Deity of the Holy Spirit is God.

You can smugly run from it. But, others will find it. Smugness is a type of confidence that is an illusion.

grace and truth.......
 
Um, no... he claimed "the angel was YHWH's visible form" and "[t]he angel of YHWH must be YHWH Himself in a human-like form." If he has now gone on to differentiate human and angel forms/images, my latest criticism stands along with my previous ones.
Not in human like form. In angelic form.


Angels are now experientially higher than we are. Yet, you say God can not be manifested in angelic form? But, only in the (temporarily) lower human form with Jesus?

To the angels God revealed Himself first. For no man yet existed before man was created.

How did He manifest Himself to the angels? As a man? NO! As the Angel of Jehovah.

Before man existed? An angel could have asked the Angel of Jehovah to show them the Father. The response? "To see me is to see the Father."

As Jesus came to man.. as a man! The Angel of Jehovah first came to the angels, as an angel. Man is soul. Angels are spirits. The Holy Spirit first appeared to the angels in bodily form like an angel. Jesus could do it with man. The Angel of Jehovah did the equivalent with the angels.

Its is a vital part of the puzzle not to be missed. To get the big picture one must not toss away what one does not know where it fits.
 
How would you interpret Malachi 3:1-6 Hakkore, I'm just curious about that.

Does that seem like an angel or prophet to you, the language is pretty strong.
The מלאך of this text is a (human) prophet, not an angel:

See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight -- indeed, he is coming, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 3:1)

The underlined bits are references to the Israelite deity... he is the speaking subject who sends the messenger, which oracle is implicitly delivered through an angel signaled by the third person narration of the Lord (האדון) who will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of 1a and the messenger of 1b are one and the same individual, who contextually is of priestly lineage (see 2:7) and among whose tasks will be to purify the descendants of Levi (see 3:3). This figure's relationship to the prophet Elijah who will be sent before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes (see 4:5) is more ambiguous, but some early Christians certainly viewed these as the same individual embodied in John the Baptist.

Indeed, Luke crafts his narrative about this figure by blending the two traditions in Malachi... John is given priestly lineage (1:5; 3:2) and presented as coming in Elijah's "spirit and power", specifically to "go before {the Lord}" and "to turn the hearts of parents to their children," which will make the people "prepared for the Lord" (1:17) --- this blends elements of Mal 3:1 and 4:5-6. He also incorporates elements from Mal 3:5 into John's preaching... in preparation for the divine judgment therein spoken of against the likes of adulterers and those who oppress the poor and defraud people of their wages, Luke touches on these subjects in his advice to the people (Luke 3:10-14) and condemnation of the marriage between Herod (Antipas) and Herodias in light of the latter's previous marriage to his brother (3:19); note the explicit detestation of divorce in Mal 2:16.

The Lord whose coming John's own coming prepares for is, according to Luke and others among the early Christian writers, Jesus... and this figure is divine in the source text, equated with the Israelite deity. As I have maintained from the beginning of my participation in this thread, Luke habitually links "the Lord" Jesus directly with YHWH and distinguishes him from messengers, human or angelic...

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
Nice, Hakkore.

The thing that really strikes me though is this language:

But who may endure the day of his coming? And who is he that can stand when he appeareth? (Mal. 3:2 ROT)

Really has divine overtones to it speaking of the Day of Judgment.

for great is the day of Yahweh, and awful exceedingly, Who then shall endure it? (Joel 2:11 ROT)

Because the great day of their anger is come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17 ROT)
 
Nice, Hakkore.

The thing that really strikes me though is this language:

But who may endure the day of his coming? And who is he that can stand when he appeareth? (Mal. 3:2 ROT)

Really has divine overtones to it speaking of the Day of Judgment.

for great is the day of Yahweh, and awful exceedingly, Who then shall endure it? (Joel 2:11 ROT)

Because the great day of their anger is come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17 ROT)
While I can appreciate the comparisons drawn, caution is warranted since different authors can draw on similar language to say different things... within the context of Malachi, the messenger is a human priestly figure, an interpretation supported by early Christian exegesis as it appears in the New Testament gospels, Luke for the example I provided.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
The מלאך of this text is a (human) prophet, not an angel:

See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight -- indeed, he is coming, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 3:1)
I understand the messenger of 1a and the messenger of 1b to be 2 different messengers. Messenger 1a = John the Baptist (Matt 3:1-3) who is preparing the way for Messenger 1b, Jesus Christ, who is bringing in the new covenant in his own blood. Heb 10:29
 
I understand the messenger of 1a and the messenger of 1b to be 2 different messengers. Messenger 1a = John the Baptist (Matt 3:1-3) who is preparing the way for Messenger 1b, Jesus Christ, who is bringing in the new covenant in his own blood. Heb 10:29
Malachi is a double fulfillment prophecy.

First was John the Baptist heralding in the Church age Messiah.

The Second is Elijah who will be heralding in the Millennium Messiah.


The first was the Messiah being as a man in order to die in our place.

The second will be the Messiah being Lord God over all creation with His chosen ones. Chosen from within the Church to reign with Him.
 
Malachi is a double fulfillment prophecy.

First was John the Baptist heralding in the Church age Messiah.

The Second is Elijah who will be heralding in the Millennium Messiah.


The first was the Messiah being as a man in order to die in our place.

The second will be the Messiah being Lord God over all creation with His chosen ones. Chosen from within the Church to reign with Him.
It's the same Messiah in the first and second prophecy, correct? Just different messengers.? Who do you think is the messenger of the covenant?

@Jonathan, is there anything wrong between the NRSV and NASB/NET versions in your opinion?

See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight -- indeed, he is coming, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 3:1) NRSVUE

“Behold, I am sending My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And the Lord, whom you are seeking, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of armies. NASB

“I am about to send my messenger, who will clear the way before me. Indeed, the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom you long for, is certainly coming,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. NET
 
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I understand the messenger of 1a and the messenger of 1b to be 2 different messengers. Messenger 1a = John the Baptist (Matt 3:1-3) who is preparing the way for Messenger 1b, Jesus Christ, who is bringing in the new covenant in his own blood. Heb 10:29
You are not alone in understanding the second messenger to be a reference to Jesus (or, minus the specifically Christian lens, to the Lord who comes to his temple), but it does infer an author whose end result is at best confusing and at worst misleading... it is far more natural to take the two references to a "messenger" as the same individual, who is contextually a Levite priest:

Know, then, that I have sent his command to you, that my covenant with Levi may hold, says the LORD of Hosts. My covenant with him was a covenant of life and well-being, which I gave him; this called for reverence, and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in integrity and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts. But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 2:4-8)

The context establishes not only the priestly identity of the messenger who appears in 3:1, but also the covenant that is in view... to read a second messenger into the text, one who establishes a new covenant, is to read something into the text of Malachi that is simply not there.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
It's the same Messiah in the first and second prophecy, correct? Just different messengers.? Who do you think is the messenger of the covenant?

See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight -- indeed, he is coming, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 3:1)
The same Messiah. But, with two different purposes to fulfill. Two different messengers to herald each arrival.

In one sense, Jesus coming the first time was clearing the way for His Second coming.

He first had to gather His Church to reign with Him at His second coming.


grace and peace ........
 
You are not alone in understanding the second messenger to be a reference to Jesus (or, minus the specifically Christian lens, to the Lord who comes to his temple), but it does infer an author whose end result is at best confusing and at worst misleading... it is far more natural to take the two references to a "messenger" as the same individual, who is contextually a Levite priest:

Know, then, that I have sent his command to you, that my covenant with Levi may hold, says the LORD of Hosts. My covenant with him was a covenant of life and well-being, which I gave him; this called for reverence, and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in integrity and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of Hosts. But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of Hosts. (Mal 2:4-8)

The context establishes not only the priestly identity of the messenger who appears in 3:1, but also the covenant that is in view... to read a second messenger into the text, one who establishes a new covenant, is to read something into the text of Malachi that is simply not there.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
John the baptist prepared the way before the LORD's arrival, even the arrival of Jesus Christ and not a renewal of the Mosaic covenant. Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi. The context you are using in Malachi 2:4-8 only applies to the Mosaic covenant and does not apply to the new covenant that Lord Jesus purchased with his own blood. Therefore Jesus is messenger #2, imo.

I think the references to Elijah have to do with leading God's people to repentance, a turning from sin back to the LORD in general and not so much a return God through adherence to the Mosaic covenant.
 
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