Tiburon
Well-known member
It means I don't believe in a God. I haven't been presented with any evidence or argument that would convince me that a God exists, nothing sufficient to warrant me adopting said belief.
Atheism: What does it mean?
- Thread starter Caroljeen
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stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
No. Nether do the Christians I know.
Tiburon
Well-known member
Well either they don't share that with you or you've become blind to it. There are plenty of Christians right here on these boards that do just that. Or do you not count your interactions here as knowing them?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Name them and copy/paste examples.
The main difference between the two is that "I don't believe God exists" can also be taken to mean "I believe God does not exist".
It's a fairly fine distinction, usually made by people who are convinced that one shouldn't believe something without convincing evidence, and don't think there is convincing evidence that God doesn't exist.
Temujin
Well-known member
It is a fine distinction, but it's important. "I don't believe God exists" means that I lack the evidence that I find credible, that God exists.
"I believe that God doesn't exist" implies that I have evidence that I find credible, that God doesn't exist.
The burden of proof in the former is absent, because there's no positive claim being made, just a rejection of claims made by the opposing point of view. There is a burden of proof in the latter case, because it makes a positive statement of non-existence .
SteveB
Well-known member
Sadly, there's no nuanced distinction with the consequences in eternity.
Both end up in hell and after the Great White Throne judgment, in the lake of fire.
Temujin
Well-known member
This is exactly the sort of blatant bullying nonsense that I would advance as evidence for why I believe that there is no God. It might have worked on ignorant medieval peasants but it doesn't work now.
SteveB
Well-known member
So, you resent being warned of impending danger, just because you don't want it to be real danger?
your mindset is exactly what the Bible is describing when it states-
Psa 14:1 WEB The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt. They have done abominable deeds. There is no one who does good.
Psa 53:1 WEB The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity. There is no one who does good.
H5036
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Original: נבל
Transliteration: nâbâl
Phonetic: naw-bawl'
BDB Definition:
- foolish, senseless, fool
H5034
TWOT entry: 1285a
Part(s) of speech: Adjective
Strong's Definition: From
H5034
; stupid ; wicked (especially impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.
We don't talk about this issue because we enjoy discussing it. We discuss it explicitly because YHVH discusses it!
Deu 30:19 WEB I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your descendants,
Eze 18:30-32 WEB 30 “Therefore I will judge you, ......, everyone according to his ways,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Return, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit. For why will you die, ........? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!
Jesus further warned us,
Luk 12:47-48 WEB 47 That servant who knew his lord’s will, and didn’t prepare nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, 48 but he who didn’t know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. To whomever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked.
We who follow Jesus have given you everything you need to successfully engage YHVH on his terms and conditions.
It's simply a choice for you to make.
Joh 3:16-21 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
Guaranteeing that you will go exactly where you despise being warned to escape.
I would disagree with your claim that there is a burden of proof in the latter case. I don't have a burden to prove anything that I believe, unless I'm trying to convince someone else to believe it.
I understand that you believe that.
Temujin
Well-known member
True enough. Correction accepted.
Temujin
Well-known member
Even if what you believe is wholly true, you are not the judge, and your arrogance would put you in the same place as me. Which would be Hell, indeed.
SteveB
Well-known member
Actually, I believe Jesus.
He talked extensively about the issue.
He said it's the reason he came.
Joh 3:16-21 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
SteveB
Well-known member
I never said I was.
Jesus said God's Word is our Judge.
Jesus came to save us from our sin.
refusal to turn to YHVH from our sin and place our trust in Jesus will result in perishing.
What do you think arrogance is?
This sounds the same to me. They both say that God does not exist.
These people need evidence for the propositions that God does exist and God doesn't exist. Without proof they cannot believe either.
No such thing as an “agnostic atheist”
It’s been common in the last couple of decades for atheists to attempt to redefine atheism as a “lack of belief in God” as opposed to “a belief that God does not exist.̶…
thinkingtobelieve.com
This confused me for awhile. It helped to think of it in terms of a trial. Suppose you are a jurist. At the end of the trial, you still have your doubts about the person's guilt. They might be guilty, you're just not convinced.
After you tell the other jurists that you're not convinced of guilt, they ask you, "So that means you think they're innocent?" You realize you have your doubts about innocence too! You're not convinced they're innocent either.
So for the claim of guilt, you're not convinced.
For the claim of innocence, you're not convinced.
For the claim that a god(s) exists, I'm not convinced.
For the claim that no god exists, I'm not convinced.
That analogy helped me understand, I hope it helps!
I've heard the term gnostic atheist (claims there is no god) vs. agnostic atheist (not convinced there is a god, not convinced there isn't a god).
i think the important thing is to define terms so people understand your position.
Found this, might be helpful: https://images.app.goo.gl/zRJ8m2o7Kv8Zosvk9
Tiburon
Well-known member
Agnosticism and atheism aren't on a continuum.
Agnosticism makes a knowledge claim ie can we know?
Atheism makes a belief claim ie do you believe.
Thus someone can be an agnostic atheist. They don't don't think it is possible to know, but on balance they don't believe there is a God.
Strong atheists would be gnostic atheists. They think we can know and don't believe there is a God.
As with Tor's trial example, we find people guilty or not guilty.
We don't find them guilty or innocent.
Jurors are convinced the suspect is guilty or they are not convinced. That doesn't mean they are innocent, just that the case for guilty hasn't been made.
So if the charge against God was being guilty of existing, atheists find for the not guilty verdict, as they don't don't believe the case has been made.