Atonement

treeplanter

Well-known member
Jesus died for our sins
2 Cor 5:21
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

My question, very simply, is this:

Was YHVH required by a force/power greater than He to do so
or
did YHVH choose this of His own free will?
 
There is no force greater than YHVH so whatever he does is chosen by his own free will.
I agree

YHVH chose of His own free will that a sinless man would have to suffer horrendously and die on a cross for the sins of every other man before He, YHVH, would deign to offer His forgiveness of sin

YHVH didn't need to do this
It was, as you have affirmed, a free will choice

Now, I have another question for you:

Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?
 
I agree

YHVH chose of His own free will that a sinless man would have to suffer horrendously and die on a cross for the sins of every other man before He, YHVH, would deign to offer His forgiveness of sin

YHVH didn't need to do this
It was, as you have affirmed, a free will choice

Now, I have another question for you:

Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?

No, it is not acceptable. However there are two points you need to consider.

Jesus agreed to undergo this suffering. In Matthew 26:53 he said, "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?"

The suffering was not needless. Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood. If Jesus had not shed his blood by being crucified all of us would have been condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
 
Jesus died for our sins
2 Cor 5:21
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

My question, very simply, is this:

Was YHVH required by a force/power greater than He to do so
or
did YHVH choose this of His own free will?
I know you are saying this is a simple question but I don't understand what you are asking.
 
Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood.
And this is by the free will choice of YHVH

Like you earlier stated, there is no force greater than YHVH
There is nothing compelling Him to acknowledge and/or dictate that sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood

It is YHVH's choice that sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood

YHVH didn't NEED to structure the process of atonement the way He did
He wasn't forced
It wasn't required

No, He consciously and purposefully chose that sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood
His choice was, by definition, NEEDLESS

And, like you acknowledged above, it is not acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others...
 
I know you are saying this is a simple question but I don't understand what you are asking.
Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood, right?

Is this something that YHVH freely decided
or
is this something that He was required to embrace?
 
Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood, right?

Is this something that YHVH freely decided
or
is this something that He was required to embrace?
This question doesn't make sense to me.

Is this what you are asking?

 
This question doesn't make sense to me.

Is this what you are asking?

I think that is what he's asking. I think you'll agree with me, but, just to be clear, that the Law requires shedding of blood is not a reason why God requires the shedding of blood, because God made the Law, so you might as well ask why God required the Law to require the shedding of blood.

I know what would happen to me if I required the shedding of blood (even a little) before I forgave anyone of anything. It just makes no sense for God to require it. Every single time I have forgiven someone, I didn't require a blood sacrifice, nor the shedding of any blood. I just did it as a kind of gift to the person, to get things back on track. So what consideration makes it such that God would choose the shedding of blood in order to forgive everyone? Surely God could just forgive everyone far more easily than I forgive people.

It makes no sense, whereas if you consider the blood sacrifice to merely have come out of that tribe's existing cultural practices, it is explained quite easily.
 
I think that is what he's asking. I think you'll agree with me, but, just to be clear, that the Law requires shedding of blood is not a reason why God requires the shedding of blood, because God made the Law, so you might as well ask why God required the Law to require the shedding of blood.
That is what I was asking in that thread from 2022 that I linked here.

I haven't finished reading the responses to that thread because up to page 3 no one realy answered my question to my satisfaction.
The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23, not just a physical death because we all die. The reason Christ died was not to keep us from a physical, it has to have more meaning than that. I'm still not sure why the shedding of blood was required to atone for our sins except perhaps Jesus took our debt of sin upon himself and to bring about an acceptable atonement.

My question was and still is "why the shedding of blood for the atonement of sin?" Why did God choose that method to reconcile us to himself when we became his enemies by sinning? The punishment for sin is death seems severe. Maybe it has to do with God's holiness.
I'll have to go back and read the rest of the thread to see if someone has an answer and pray about it.


I know what would happen to me if I required the shedding of blood (even a little) before I forgave anyone of anything. It just makes no sense for God to require it. Every single time I have forgiven someone, I didn't require a blood sacrifice, nor the shedding of any blood. I just did it as a kind of gift to the person, to get things back on track. So what consideration makes it such that God would choose the shedding of blood in order to forgive everyone? Surely God could just forgive everyone far more easily than I forgive people.
Hebrews 9-10 gives an explanation from a Jewish perspective. We put ourselves at a distance from God when we sin and need reconciliation.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the holy place year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

and,

1John 1: This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; 7 but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It makes no sense, whereas if you consider the blood sacrifice to merely have come out of that tribe's existing cultural practices, it is explained quite easily.
This would not be the correct way to think about this question because the NT writers, who were mostly Jewish, included the words of Jesus and their own interpretations in their writings which hold that Christ shed his blood for us as an atonement for our sins.
 
Hebrews 9-10 gives an explanation from a Jewish perspective. We put ourselves at a distance from God when we sin and need reconciliation.
Nothing in that says why a blood sacrifice is necessary.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these.
I don't see why any sacrifice is necessary. I don't require sacrifice when I forgive someone.

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the holy place year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

and,

1John 1: This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; 7 but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This would not be the correct way to think about this question because the NT writers, who were mostly Jewish, included the words of Jesus and their own interpretations in their writings which hold that Christ shed his blood for us as an atonement for our sins.
I don't see anything in that that explains why God requires a blood sacrifice for atonement (as distinct from the fact that God *did* require it, per the Bible)?
 
This question doesn't make sense to me.

Is this what you are asking?

Not sure what you are struggling with?

Either God chose that sin can be atoned for only by the shedding of blood
OR
this is a 'law' that exists/existed outside of and separate from Him - a law that even He must bow down to

Which is it?
 
And, like you acknowledged above, it is not acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others...

How did you reach the conclusion that what God did was needless? We may not be able to see the purpose but we need to keep in mind that we are finite and there are some things beyond our ability to comprehend. This will not always be the case.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:12)

One day many things that we don't understand and even think are foolish will be made clear to us and we will know that God's way is best.
 
How did you reach the conclusion that what God did was needless?
That which we are required to do is NEEDED
That which we freely choose to do is NEEDLESS

Oftentimes, we human beings have no other choice and are required to cause harm in order to attain a greater good
ex:
rejecting the romantic advancements of one that you're not romantically interested in
punishing a child for reckless behavior so as to ensure their future safety
cutting a person open so as to remove a cancer

These are NEEDED/NEEDFUL harms

God, on the other hand, is NEVER required to cause harm in order to attain a greater good
Like you said:
"There is no force greater than YHVH so whatever he does is chosen by his own free will"

God could have decided that sin can be atoned for WITHOUT the shedding of blood
God could have decided that sin can be atoned for by other, non-harmful, means

Instead, God consciously and purposefully chose to inflict this NEEDLESS harm upon Jesus
 
That which we are required to do is NEEDED
That which we freely choose to do is NEEDLESS

Oftentimes, we human beings have no other choice and are required to cause harm in order to attain a greater good
ex:
rejecting the romantic advancements of one that you're not romantically interested in
punishing a child for reckless behavior so as to ensure their future safety
cutting a person open so as to remove a cancer

These are NEEDED/NEEDFUL harms

God, on the other hand, is NEVER required to cause harm in order to attain a greater good
Like you said:
"There is no force greater than YHVH so whatever he does is chosen by his own free will"

God could have decided that sin can be atoned for WITHOUT the shedding of blood
God could have decided that sin can be atoned for by other, non-harmful, means

Instead, God consciously and purposefully chose to inflict this NEEDLESS harm upon Jesus
When you are God and create a whole universe, I guess then you get to decide what is justice.

Shedding of blood of blood is because "the wages of sin is death". Think about it for a moment, A person live to 70. Probably in thought, word and deed has sinned 1 million times. Now God has a death sentence for that person because they sinned. Why? If they live to 70 trillion years they would have 1 million trillion sins (10^18). If they live for every, they will have an infinite number of sins. So the death penalty is to keep them from doing infinite evil. Now they go to judgment. What should be their punishment. Just because God stopped them from continuing on to infinite evil, He still could punish them for their infinite evil. So that is why they are in the lake of fire forever. That also keeps them from infinite evil.

God allows free will. So why would He force those that hate Him to be with Him in heaven when all the saints and angels will of their own free will worship Him? That would be worse than hell for them.
 
When you are God and create a whole universe, I guess then you get to decide what is justice.
I don't accept that

I can and do decide 'what is justice' despite never having created a whole universe
Might does NOT make right, SBTL!

Shedding of blood of blood is because "the wages of sin is death".
The wages of sin are death only because YHVH needlessly chose that it be so

So the death penalty is to keep them from doing infinite evil.
Infinite evil?
Finite beings are incapable of doing anything infinite

Not to mention that much of what God defines as sin is not evil to begin with...

God allows free will.
No, He doesn't!

God created man {Adam} to be in communion with Him
Man {Adam} defied God and, as a consequence, God decided that every man to come be incapable of sinlessness
That we are created utterly incapable of attaining the very purpose that man was 1st created to is proof that we have no free will

So why would He force those that hate Him to be with Him in heaven when all the saints and angels will of their own free will worship Him? That would be worse than hell for them.
I agree - I would hate to be forced to spend eternity with one that I find morally reprehensible

That said, why can't those that think like I do be made to simply cease existing?
Why the conscious and purposeful infliction of a needless harm like Hell?
 
Instead, God consciously and purposefully chose to inflict this NEEDLESS harm upon Jesus

Jesus agreed with his Father's decision. He was not forced to suffer. And how can you know what is needed and what is needless? Like the rest of us you are a sinful human and sin has affected your knowledge of right and wrong.
 
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