Calvcinist Loraine Boettner

[armylngst]

First no one is in Christ before the foundation of the world

That is a direct attack on God Himself, as Ephesians 1 is not Paul writing Paul, but God writing His words for us using Paul as His quill. Ephesians 1:4 clearly states that "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Take up your issues with God, and ask Him why He lied. I keep wondering why you kept cutting out the first part of the verse, and have reached the conclusion that you have issues with God Himself, and are upset that He apparently does not believe as you do.

second regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Sounds like the Calvinist understanding. How many times have we said that the regeneration is worked by God/Holy Spirit so that people can understand and be saved, not by works, but solely by the grace of God whom visited His Spirit upon us while we were yet still sinners, dead in our trespasses and sins.

and because no one is saved previous to faith

This is why we say regeneration precedes faith. The regeneration is just a washing, not salvation itself, as you so generously expressed in the pasage given. The renewing of the Holy Ghost. What was being regenerated.

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
faith precedes regeneration just as many verses show

The regeneration of the jailer, that shocking from death to life, from asleep to awake, happened before he cried out to Paul. He understood something was not right. However, his salvation was still forthcoming, because, even though Paul said this, he ended up preaching to the jailer and his household at a later time. What did he preach? The gospel. And that to a now receptive jailer. Receptive because God had regenerated him, and the jailer was renewed of the Holy Ghost, so as to hear, understand, believe, and be saved.

 

[armylngst]

Same One Jesus followed obeyed and called Father. Not someone but God Himself.

So I take it that you were never a disciple, and never involved in discipleship? You do understand that this is the same as a craftman who is a apprentice, then journeyman, and then their own "master" out in the world on their own, looking for apprentices of their own. What are they teaching, and what are they pointing to? Their craft. In discipleship, the master of the disciple is teaching them the tenants of the "craft", in this case the gospel, and the Bible. They are teaching the disciple the teachings of Jesus, of God, of the Bible. The disciples followed Jesus, who taught them the ways of God the Father, and the truth of Himself and of the world. Jesus was the example that we continue to follow. This is wh there are discipleship groups, or even one on one's, where a strong, well learned believer takes a new believer under their wings and teaches them the truths the need to know as a believer. There are those who understand that it is God they are focused on, but there are also those who Paul was chastising for focusing on their "master" instead of on the one their "master" is pointing them to. Paul did not appreciate it, and so he set the record straight.

God is not a someone but is a Spirit and man is the temple of Him to have His same mind, or Spirit it is called.
That is why I follow the way of my Father instead of someone else. So did Jesus the same.

Except that Jesus taught His disciples to follow Him. Not wrong at all, considering that He is the Way the Truth and the Life, and that no one can come to the Father but by Jesus.

No they gave me their testimonies of their personal dealings with God. These in these forums do the same things giving me their own interpretations for what it is to be of God.

The only truth comes by God Himself be in me. Jesus went through this very enlightenment by God Himself. in Matt 3:16 just as He does in us all who receives the same as Jesus did from Him.

And so you see yourself as Jesus? How high minded of you.

He said go and make disciples, not according to law, not according to beliefs, but that word go means to live it, make disciples by example not by words.

That is not what he was saying. He was saying it in the same way that He made disciples. He was the example that He commanded the church to follow. Discipleship is important, because it is by the teaching of the "master", and the example they set, that sets the path of the disciple towards God. It turns their eyes to God. Without discipleship, how are new believers to learn how to act, how to live, and learn doctrine in an environment where they can question and get answers from someone who is knowledgeable. It is the perfect environment, as worship service, and pastors preaching are not a place where people can question. However, in all of that, one must not come to worship their "master".

Note: In discipleship, there is the "master" who is the teacher, and there is the disciple, who is the student. Just as the disciple is a follower of the Way (Jesus), so the master is also a follower of the Way, and is simply their to teach the new believer about the Way.

Yes God Himself is the master. Jesus said that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. I can identify with Jesus testimony for it is truth. Jesus didn't no man teach him nor does anyone else who has from God Himself that what Jesus received from Him.

You don't understand discipleship, do you?

God came to Jesus by His Spirit and opens up who He is and all of His heaven to Jesus. See Matt 3:16, this is How God does it in us all who will receive Him that He be manifest in you as He was manifest in Jesus.
You see you are making your own laws for beliefs. The reality is Jesus couldn't even save his own disciples. Di not every single one of them flat out denied to be associated with him in his trials and tribulations? Not one came to be identified with him.

This is why when Peter denied Christ, it wasn't a big deal to Peter. He didn't identify with Christ. And no, only one of the disciples denied to be associated with him. The rest of them had run.

It took God Himself to to come to them and open up who He is and His heaven to them for salvation in an upper room. Same One who came to Adam and he became like God to know this difference, gen 3:22, Abraham received the same, Moses received the same, Jesus did in. Matt 3:16 just as 120 did and just as we all today receive the same from God Himself if we are to be of Him to call Him our father.

What do you mean He came to Adam? You don't understand that God created Adam, and was with Adam from that moment? He didn't come to Adam, He created Adam. Jesus is God.

Properly? Dont you mean they teach their laws that governed their beliefs?
Jim Jones, and David Koresh, properly taught about god according to their beliefs. Catholic, Mormons, Baptists, AOGs, COCs, you name it do the same thing and they all argue who has it properly.

No properly, in the way that Peter spoke of Apollos learning about God properly from Aquilla and Priscilla. Apollos knew of God, but his understanding was not correct. After they "discipled" him and taught him about God properly, Apollos ministry EXPLODED. This is what discipleship is about.

The only truth come by God Himself manifest in you just as He was manifest in Jesus no different at all, God never has changed, His abode has always been in man. It is He who gives His truths.

His abode is in eternity.

How do we know it is of the same God Who Jesus was of? By identification with Jesus in the Father, He in you the same identification with the father Jesus had. God manifest in you as He did in Jesus. Matt 3:16.
God is not out to make me a perfect specimen in His showcase, He is out to make me exactly like Himself.

So how is God sub-perfect?

 

[fltom]

That is a direct attack on God Himself, as Ephesians 1 is not Paul writing Paul, but God writing His words for us using Paul as His quill. Ephesians 1:4 clearly states that "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Take up your issues with God, and ask Him why He lied. I keep wondering why you kept cutting out the first part of the verse, and have reached the conclusion that you have issues with God Himself, and are upset that He apparently does not believe as you do.

Sorry no one existed to be in Christ

The us refers to the faithful in Christ of verse 1

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Before the foundation of the world God chose that those in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in Love

Now that could either refer to the corporate election of the church or theelectionof indivifdual based on what God knows

Sorry i have cut out nothing I have given a rational explain held by many i;e bothArminians and Provisionists

What is appearent is you really have no clue as to what is common belief in the church

Sounds like the Calvinist understanding. How many times have we said that the regeneration is worked by God/Holy Spirit so that people can understand and be saved, not by works, but solely by the grace of God whom visited His Spirit upon us while we were yet still sinners, dead in our trespasses and sins.

This is why we say regeneration precedes faith. The regeneration is just a washing, not salvation itself, as you so generously expressed in the pasage given. The renewing of the Holy Ghost. What was being regenerated.

You can say it but it is contrary to scripture

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. It is through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The regeneration of the jailer, that shocking from death to life, from asleep to awake, happened before he cried out to Paul. He understood something was not right. However, his salvation was still forthcoming, because, even though Paul said this, he ended up preaching to the jailer and his household at a later time. What did he preach? The gospel. And that to a now receptive jailer. Receptive because God had regenerated him, and the jailer was renewed of the Holy Ghost, so as to hear, understand, believe, and be saved.

Eisegesis

Nowhere was it stated the jailer was regenerated previous to faith

You are reading your theology into scripture

 

[armylngst]

Sorry no one existed to be in Christ

The us refers to the faithful in Christ of verse 1

You just agreed with me, because those of verse 1 are ANY believer who reads Ephesians. ANY.

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Before the foundation of the world God chose that those in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in Love
Now that could either refer to the corporate election of the church or theelectionof indivifdual based on what God knows
Sorry i have cut out nothing I have given a rational explain held by many i;e bothArminians and Provisionists
What is appearent is you really have no clue as to what is common belief in the church

So you are saying that they cut out context, to protect yourself?

You can say it but it is contrary to scripture
Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

So, those who have not faced God in any way can have faith and repent? Just why do you seek to contradict the very words of Jesus Himself? With man, it is impossible. Jesus did not stutter. He was being direct. Do you want to see a regeneration that precedes faith and repentance, look at Saul on the way to Damascus. God shook him awake, directly applied the jumper cables, and jump started Saul. Before he ever presented faith and repentance, he faced Jesus/God Himself. He was shocked back to life, by the direct intervention of God. It was a very visual representation of what happens to any who come to believe. You can find stories everywhere of people who had heard the gospel ALL THEIR LIFE, and then 40 years down the road, something snaps, a light turns on, and they understand, fall on their face, repent and are saved.

Eisegesis

Nowhere was it stated the jailer was regenerated previous to faith

You are reading your theology into scripture

You really don't understand what it is to go from death to life, and to understand the gospel. The jailer was shocked to life by the events at the jailhouse, and God put Paul there just for the jailer. The jailer faced death and what was to come, and he knew, he knew that he was doomed. He was not dead, but very much alive at that point. He knew Paul had the words of life, and asked him "What must I do to be saved?" This is not the question of an atheist, or a dead sinner. The atheist doesn't believe they need to be saved from anyone, and dead sinner just sins, and doesn't want anyone to stop them. You can see that clearly in the world today, direct observation.

 

[fltom]

fltom said:
Sorry no one existed to be in Christ

The us refers to the faithful in Christ of verse 1

Army
You just agreed with me, because those of verse 1 are ANY believer who reads Ephesians. ANY.

I agree only that those in Christ are chosen to to be holy and blameless before God in Love

I deny there is any reference to unconditional election

fltom said:
Ephesians 1:1 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Before the foundation of the world God chose that those in Christ should be holy and blameless before him in Love
Now that could either refer to the corporate election of the church or the election of individuals based on what God knows
Sorry i have cut out nothing I have given a rational explaination held by many i;e both Arminians and Provisionists
What is apparent is you really have no clue as to what is common belief in the church

Army
So you are saying that they cut out context, to protect yourself?

No that is not what I stated at all

fltom said:

You can say it but it is contrary to scripture
Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

Army
So, those who have not faced God in any way can have faith and repent? Just why do you seek to contradict the very words of Jesus Himself? With man, it is impossible. Jesus did not stutter.

Jesus did not say faith is impossible . Read what is in the verse

Army
. Do you want to see a regeneration that precedes faith and repentance, look at Saul on the way to Damascus. God shook him awake, directly applied the jumper cables, and jump started Saul. Before he ever presented faith and repentance, he faced Jesus/God Himself. He was shocked back to life, by the direct intervention of God. It was a very visual representation of what happens to any who come to believe. You can find stories everywhere of people who had heard the gospel ALL THEIR LIFE, and then 40 years down the road, something snaps, a light turns on, and they understand, fall on their face, repent and are saved.

There is nothing there that that speaks of regeneration

You are reading your theology into the narrative

fltom said:
Eisegesis

Nowhere was it stated the jailer was regenerated previous to faith

You are reading your theology into scripture

Army
You really don't understand what it is to go from death to life, and to understand the gospel. The jailer was shocked to life by the events at the jailhouse, and God put Paul there just for the jailer. The jailer faced death and what was to come, and he knew, he knew that he was doomed. He was not dead, but very much alive at that point. He knew Paul had the words of life, and asked him "What must I do to be saved?" This is not the question of an atheist, or a dead sinner. The atheist doesn't believe they need to be saved from anyone, and dead sinner just sins, and doesn't want anyone to stop them. You can see that clearly in the world today, direct observation.

Still not a word of regeneration before faith as

you continue to read your view into scripture

 

[armylngst]

I agree only that those in Christ are chosen to to be holy and blameless before God in Love

I deny there is any reference to unconditional election

Is this because it is your greatness that will get you into heaven, that God chose who to save based on a merit system of conditions?

No that is not what I stated at all

fltom said:





Jesus did not say faith is impossible . Read what is in the verse

So, don't consider what it means. How in the world did you ever reach the conclusion of "the Trinity" since it is not mentioned anywhere in scripture? Yes, Jesus is talking about salvation. Yes, of salvation, using a biblical context you continue to ignore, Paul says, "For by grace you have been saved...", which means that anything in connection with this grace which saves us, is impossible for man. This is not all Paul said, because, to continue He said, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith...". So that means, by using proper standards of understanding, that this faith is also covered in Jesus statement, or do you deny a biblical context, and as such, biblical consistency? I John 6, there were many who came to see Jesus, but Jesus basically told them, if they weren't drawn by God, it means nothing. What happened by the end of the verse? Of what may have been hundreds perhaps a lot more, only 12 stayed. All the rest left. Why? Jesus already told us. God did not draw them.

There is nothing there that that speaks of regeneration
You are reading your theology into the narrative

Genesis-Revelation, there is nothing here that speaks of the Trinity. You are reading your theology into the narrative. Do you have a single standard, or do they come in doubles? I have no problem finding the Trinity clearly stated within the context of the whole of scripture. However, there are whole denominations that find solace in that it is not mentioned once in scripture, and therefore is not found in scripture. They are kind of like you in that regard.

Army
You really don't understand what it is to go from death to life, and to understand the gospel. The jailer was shocked to life by the events at the jailhouse, and God put Paul there just for the jailer. The jailer faced death and what was to come, and he knew, he knew that he was doomed. He was not dead, but very much alive at that point. He knew Paul had the words of life, and asked him "What must I do to be saved?" This is not the question of an atheist, or a dead sinner. The atheist doesn't believe they need to be saved from anyone, and dead sinner just sins, and doesn't want anyone to stop them. You can see that clearly in the world today, direct observation.

Still not a word of regeneration before faith as
you continue to read your view into scripture

The better way to say it is there is no faith without regeneration, as there is no grace without God. Jesus was not glossing over salvation, and leaving out information. He was very clear when He said that with man it is impossible. No grace, and no faith to work through that grace to salvation. The work of God granting the grace to understand the gospel that we might have faith is regeneration.

 

[fltom]

fltom said:
I agree only that those in Christ are chosen to to be holy and blameless before God in Love

I deny there is any reference to unconditional election

Army
Is this because it is your greatness that will get you into heaven, that God chose who to save based on a merit system of conditions?

Have you ever seen me say anything like that. Does deceptive sarcasm advance your argument

fltom said:
No that is not what I stated at all

fltom said:





Jesus did not say faith is impossible . Read what is in the verse
Click to expand...

Army
So, don't consider what it means. How in the world did you ever reach the conclusion of "the Trinity" since it is not mentioned anywhere in scripture? Yes, Jesus is talking about salvation.

It seems you have just confessed I was correct all along. Jesus was not talking about faith but salvation

Army
Yes, of salvation, using a biblical context you continue to ignore, Paul says, "For by grace you have been saved...", which means that anything in connection with this grace which saves us, is impossible for man.

That is a clear assumption as with grace faith is quite possible as seen by many examples of men believing upon hearing the word

Army
This is not all Paul said, because, to continue He said, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith...". So that means, by using proper standards of understanding, that this faith is also covered in Jesus statement, or do you deny a biblical context,

All that statement states in relation to grace is you have been saved

you are reading into the text what is not there

Army
and as such, biblical consistency? I John 6, there were many who came to see Jesus, but Jesus basically told them, if they weren't drawn by God, it means nothing. What happened by the end of the verse? Of what may have been hundreds perhaps a lot more, only 12 stayed. All the rest left. Why? Jesus already told us. God did not draw them.

How did God draw men to Jesus. Verse 45 tells us

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

fltom said:
There is nothing there that that speaks of regeneration
You are reading your theology into the narrative

Army
Genesis-Revelation, there is nothing here that speaks of the Trinity. You are reading your theology into the narrative. Do you have a single standard, or do they come in doubles? I have no problem finding the Trinity clearly stated within the context of the whole of scripture. However, there are whole denominations that find solace in that it is not mentioned once in scripture, and therefore is not found in scripture. They are kind of like you in that regard.

Weak argument. The trinity can be proven by by the aggregate of scripture

you have not show that one verse speaks of regeneration

Army
You really don't understand what it is to go from death to life, and to understand the gospel. The jailer was shocked to life by the events at the jailhouse, and God put Paul there just for the jailer. The jailer faced death and what was to come, and he knew, he knew that he was doomed. He was not dead, but very much alive at that point. He knew Paul had the words of life, and asked him "What must I do to be saved?" This is not the question of an atheist, or a dead sinner. The atheist doesn't believe they need to be saved from anyone, and dead sinner just sins, and doesn't want anyone to stop them. You can see that clearly in the world today, direct observation.

Still not a word of regeneration before faith as
you continue to read your view into scripture
Click to expand...

Army
The better way to say it is there is no faith without regeneration, as there is no grace without God. Jesus was not glossing over salvation, and leaving out information. He was very clear when He said that with man it is impossible. No grace, and no faith to work through that grace to salvation. The work of God granting the grace to understand the gospel that we might have faith is regeneration.

You say but you do not prove it. Rather you just ignore multiple verses and lines of evidence showing faith precedes regenerations

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[Gary Mac]

Yes jesus as THE annointed one, and in Him we are annointed as well.

Yes same anointing from the Father to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Not very many believe Jesus in that statement because they are of sin instead, because they will tell you it is impossible to be perfect as God is perfect. They follow Pauls teachings as a sinner instead of Jesus and be without sin.

We who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin because we are born of God and perfect as He is perfect. 1 John 3:9

 

[armylngst]

Have you ever seen me say anything like that. Does deceptive sarcasm advance your argument

It was sarcasm, but not deceptive. Yes, I have seen you say that God's choice is by merit. God's choice is conditional. This means that God's choice is by works we have done, to merit being chosen. However, I have shown time and time again that God's choice was unconditional. Even GOD HIMSELF, through Paul gave a precise and exact example, and said that the reason the example was given was to show that the choice was not by works, not by merit, not conditional. If it was conditional, God would have hated BOTH Jacob and Isaac, because Jacob had his own problems, and some of those things, God hated. (lying, deception, etc.) Yet, God chose Jacob anyway. He didn't even wait to see what sort of person Jacob would be. (Using the context given by Paul.) Before Jacob and Isaac had the chance to do good or evil, God had already decided to love Jacob and hate Esau. No conditions are present. He turned cultural understanding of the time upside down. He even took Isaac for a spin. God did the OPPOSITE of what Isaac wanted. Of what Isaac understood was his duty as the patriarch. All because God chose as He wanted to choose, and not by conditions. If it was by conditions, God would have to choose Esau, not Jacob.

It seems you have just confessed I was correct all along. Jesus was not talking about faith but salvation

I forgot that faith has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. I forgot that a non-believer can have a living faith to salvation, completely apart from any work of God, since Jesus said this is impossible. Why do you deny the aggregate of scripture, except where you state it is okay to accept it?

That is a clear assumption as with grace faith is quite possible as seen by many examples of men believing upon hearing the word

You still haven't explained WHY they believed upon hearing, and I am talking about an indepth explanation of what is happening in side of that person. Jesus is clear that it is impossible with man. That is impossible for men to believe, since to believe is to be saved, and, as you keep harping on, Jesus is speaking of salvation, right?

All that statement states in relation to grace is you have been saved

Really? That's all you see? Just how shallow is your understanding of aggregate scripture? There is A LOT to unpack in the context of Ephesians 2. A LOT. The verse starts with FOR, which means it is no to be taken in isolation. So please, STOP ISOLATING IT.

you are reading into the text what is not there

When did our discussion switch over to the trinity?

How did God draw men to Jesus. Verse 45 tells us

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Wow, you just agreed with us. God has to be involved. Yet, even Jesus basically said of those who were there in John 6, that they were drawn by things other than the Father. For those who did not show up to argue with Jesus, were drawn by curiosity, or by word of mouth. Come see this person. Like I said, when all was said and done, only 12 remained, 12 drawn by God, and 1 drawn as the son of perdition, predetermined to betray Christ.

Weak argument. The trinity can be proven by by the aggregate of scripture

Then what are you doing here? There are A LOT of arian heretics out there, and you must hate them if you aren't going out and giving them your infallible proof of the trinity. You can start in the forum here. Just title a new thread "mic drop", and let them have it. The whole proof by the aggregate of scripture. Since it is absolute proof, I would expect that forum to close by the end of the week. I am getting frustrated of all your dodging and double standards.

you have not show that one verse speaks of regeneration

You have not shown one verse that defines born again (crawling back up into the womb, and being born... again... or better yet, getting in a cocoon and coming out a new being) as regeneration (something dead being brought back to life. The same, just living now. A finger growing back, dead flesh coming back to life, a lizard growing a new tail. Regeneration. They are not the same thing (born again, regenerated).

Still not a word of regeneration before faith as
you continue to read your view into scripture
Click to expand...

You say but you do not prove it. Rather you just ignore multiple verses and lines of evidence showing faith precedes regenerations

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

And being born again is by definition becoming a new creature. NOT THE SAME THING. Regeneration is not the old being gone and the new has come. That is being born again. Regeneration is that which is dead coming back to life. It is still the old, just alive. On life support, but alive.

The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.

We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Since you don't even have the terminology right, the above doesn't really mean anything. Born again is what Paul speaks about when He said the old is gone, and behold all has become new. The old man is dead and gone, the new man has come. The old man was regenerated to understanding, and after salvation (being born again) is now the new man. By regeneration the natural man becomes capable of hearing and understanding the gospel, and through faith wrought by understanding (after regeneration), comes belief to salvation and the man is born again. The old man is gone, the new man is here. No longer born of flesh, but by the spirit.

 

[fltom]

It was sarcasm, but not deceptive. Yes, I have seen you say that God's choice is by merit. God's choice is conditional. This means that God's choice is by works we have done, to merit being chosen. However, I have shown time and time again that God's choice was unconditional.

That is false there is no merit in faith and I never stated such. So it was deceptive

Faith is not a work

Romans 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Salvation is

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

through (dia -Gr) indicates faith is the means or instrument of salvation

through faith—the effect of the power of Christ’s resurrection (Eph 1:19, 20; Php 3:10) whereby we are “raised together” with Him (Eph 2:6; Col 2:12). Some of the oldest manuscripts read, “through your (literally, ‘the’) faith.” The instrument or mean of salvation on the part of the person saved; Christ alone is the meritorious agent.1

1 Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 345.



The word by [dia (grk 1223)] is used in the Scriptures as it is in all books and in all languages. It may denote the efficient cause; the instrumental cause; the principal cause; the meritorious cause; or the chief occasion by which a thing occurred.
Barnes notes

As the Calvinist authors above note