calvin believed in free will

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So calvininsts do you believe in free will too like calvin ?

are you free willers ?


"John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing. " John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.23.2. wiki

hope this helps !!!
 
So calvininsts do you believe in free will too like calvin ?

are you free willers ?


"John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing. " John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.23.2. wiki

hope this helps !!!
Yes...
 
so why do non calvinists get attacked about free will when calvin taught free will ?
It's because of the Logical Order...

Our Will is Bound from the things of God before Grace, but our Will is Freed after Grace...

I think @travelah will agree, because of Total Depravity...
 
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so you deny free will then correct ?

sounds like you are saying the will is not free but a slave to its nature.
Yes, I would deny Free Will in that sense...

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. - Ro 7

But I would say our Will is Bound by ourself. I would say that the Will is Free from God, in a Hypostatic sense. I would say our Will flows Concurrently with God's Will, without Mixing with the Will of God...
 
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So calvininsts do you believe in free will too like calvin ?

are you free willers ?


"John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing. " John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.23.2. wiki

hope this helps !!!
This sounds similar to the WCF ch2 p1...

The Will is at Liberty, and no violence from God is offered to it; and we Confess that the Will is a Secondary Causation...
 
So calvininsts do you believe in free will too like calvin ?

are you free willers ?


"John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing. " John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.23.2. wiki

hope this helps !!!
Yes, most Calvinists believe in free will, too, like Calvin, but it should be understood Calvinism is a set of views, not a single position, and those views range from the will free to make choices but limited by God and sin to the strict determinists. That's why a conversation with one Calvinist can be different from a conversation with a different Calvinist. There are a few core concepts to which we all agree: God is sovereign, regeneration precedes and empowers belief, and it is regeneration that frees us to live rightly because right living solely in the flesh is non-meritorius.

I don't know what you mean by "free-wills," but WCF 3.1 implicitly asserts both the existence of the human will, its agency, and the existence of secondary causes (such as the human will). I also would not rely on "Institutes..." to understand Calvin because he first wrote that as a Catholic for the purpose of reforming the Roman Catholic Church. If you want to understand Calvin, then read his commentaries.
 
Yes, most Calvinists believe in free will, too, like Calvin, but it should be understood Calvinism is a set of views, not a single position, and those views range from the will free to make choices but limited by God and sin to the strict determinists. That's why a conversation with one Calvinist can be different from a conversation with a different Calvinist. There are a few core concepts to which we all agree: God is sovereign, regeneration precedes and empowers belief, and it is regeneration that frees us to live rightly because right living solely in the flesh is non-meritorius.

I don't know what you mean by "free-wills," but WCF 3.1 implicitly asserts both the existence of the human will, its agency, and the existence of secondary causes (such as the human will). I also would not rely on "Institutes..." to understand Calvin because he first wrote that as a Catholic for the purpose of reforming the Roman Catholic Church. If you want to understand Calvin, then read his commentaries.
Thanks for responding brother !
 
Yes, I would deny Free Will in that sense...

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. - Ro 7
Who is the "I", the "myself", and the "me" in what you quoted? Paul, who is indwelt, regenerated, and under grace.
So how can you use those verses to show that "Our Will is Bound from the things of God before Grace" when it is Paul who is indwelt, regenerated, and under grace and is saying all that?
 
So calvininsts do you believe in free will too like calvin ?

are you free willers ?


"John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing. " John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.23.2. wiki

hope this helps !!!
That's a Calvinist definition of "free will", not something a freewiller would espouse.
 
Who is the "I", the "myself", and the "me" in what you quoted? Paul, who is indwelt, regenerated, and under grace.
So how can you use those verses to show that "Our Will is Bound from the things of God before Grace" when it is Paul who is indwelt, regenerated, and under grace and is saying all that?
?????

That post answers its own question. Do you think grace is irrelevant or not applicable prior to conversion? The limits (or empowering) of grace exist at all times, on both sides of conversion, not just after conversion. God simply acts differently with the unregenerate than He does with the unregenerate and His choices have nothing to do with the will or act of the human. Similarly, the unregenerate and the unregenerate think, will, and act differently than the regenerate. The former has no Spirit and no salvific relationship with the Sender of that Spirit. That unregenerate person has only their sin-compromised and corrupted flesh and whatever grace God bestowed on that person prior to either his conversion or his destruction.

I don't Rev's post to imply grace is solely a post-conversion condition. More germanely though, you are correct that Paul is writing about himself from the already-regenerate position, but he's writing a comparative narrative that goes back and forth recounting the Law-only and With-Spirit conditions. It might help to remember the Law was a covenant, so both conditions from which Paul is writing are covenant conditions. He didn't specific a non-covenant context or condition at all in Romans 7. Grace applied to both covenant conditions, it just applied differently.

Part of the "Our will is bound from the things of God before grace," simply has to do with the design specifications of creation, the world, and what it means to be human. Humans are not volitionally free to ignore gravity. I don't care how strong a person's will may be, that person cannot will themselves to survive the effects of the sudden stop at the end of a 1000-foot fall. Time and space provide a variety of limits on the human will and each of them are specifically a consequence of God's design. Add to those limits the effects of sin and even more limits are added.

When some people say, "free will" they mean one thing and when other use the exact same phrase they mean another. Pelagius and Augustine, Erasmus and Luther, each saw the matter of volitional agency in different ways that possessed some common ground but also incompatible, necessarily mutually exclusive ground. One of the great ironies in the Cal v Arm debate is the fact Arminius sided with Augustine, Luther, and Calvin when it came to the effects of sin on the "free" will. Arminius plainly stated we cannot do anything good in the sinful and unregenerate state. We are not free in that way. I will gladly provide evidence from Arminius to that effect if desired and requested. Arminius held to a pre-conversion grace, just as monergists, or Calvinists do. Grace both empowers and limits the human will and it does so in different ways prior to conversion than it does after conversion. It is by grace we are saved!

And no human, regenerate or otherwise, draws a single breath one second longer than God in His grace permits. When God in His grace decides a person has drawn their last breath that is exactly what happens.
 
?????

That post answers its own question. Do you think grace is irrelevant or not applicable prior to conversion? The limits (or empowering) of grace exist at all times, on both sides of conversion, not just after conversion. God simply acts differently with the unregenerate than He does with the unregenerate and His choices have nothing to do with the will or act of the human. Similarly, the unregenerate and the unregenerate think, will, and act differently than the regenerate. The former has no Spirit and no salvific relationship with the Sender of that Spirit. That unregenerate person has only their sin-compromised and corrupted flesh and whatever grace God bestowed on that person prior to either his conversion or his destruction.

I don't Rev's post to imply grace is solely a post-conversion condition. More germanely though, you are correct that Paul is writing about himself from the already-regenerate position, but he's writing a comparative narrative that goes back and forth recounting the Law-only and With-Spirit conditions. It might help to remember the Law was a covenant, so both conditions from which Paul is writing are covenant conditions. He didn't specific a non-covenant context or condition at all in Romans 7. Grace applied to both covenant conditions, it just applied differently.

Part of the "Our will is bound from the things of God before grace," simply has to do with the design specifications of creation, the world, and what it means to be human. Humans are not volitionally free to ignore gravity. I don't care how strong a person's will may be, that person cannot will themselves to survive the effects of the sudden stop at the end of a 1000-foot fall. Time and space provide a variety of limits on the human will and each of them are specifically a consequence of God's design. Add to those limits the effects of sin and even more limits are added.

When some people say, "free will" they mean one thing and when other use the exact same phrase they mean another. Pelagius and Augustine, Erasmus and Luther, each saw the matter of volitional agency in different ways that possessed some common ground but also incompatible, necessarily mutually exclusive ground. One of the great ironies in the Cal v Arm debate is the fact Arminius sided with Augustine, Luther, and Calvin when it came to the effects of sin on the "free" will. Arminius plainly stated we cannot do anything good in the sinful and unregenerate state. We are not free in that way. I will gladly provide evidence from Arminius to that effect if desired and requested. Arminius held to a pre-conversion grace, just as monergists, or Calvinists do. Grace both empowers and limits the human will and it does so in different ways prior to conversion than it does after conversion. It is by grace we are saved!

And no human, regenerate or otherwise, draws a single breath one second longer than God in His grace permits. When God in His grace decides a person has drawn their last breath that is exactly what happens.
Our will has to be placed in its proper perspective.

For one thing, Christ exhibited what it truly means to possess a human free will through the many times he aligned his human will with his divine will. In similar fashion, we need to align our will to God's will, through God's Grace of course, for us to truly possess the free will to do good.

Also, our will is one of many faculties that God has graced us with as humans. We possess faculties of mind, heart, conscience, volition, etc... and each one has its own unquestionable importance. We are human beings, not human willings. As such our will should be placed alongside everything else that makes us human and not to overwhelm what it means to be human.
 
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Our will has to be placed in its proper perspective.

For one thing, Christ exhibited what it truly means to possess a human free will through the many times he aligned his human will with his divine will. In similar fashion, we need to align our will to God's will, through God's Grace of course, for us to truly possess the free will to do good.

Also, our will is one of many faculties that God has graced us with as humans. We possess faculties of mind, heart, conscience, volition, etc... and each one has its own unquestionable importance. We are human beings, not human willings. As such our will should be placed alongside everything else that makes us human and not to overwhelm what it means to be human.
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