Calvin's mystery

CookedGoose said:
Oh stop Tom,
Those who love God in v28 are still alive, therefore you claim they were not foreknown
"Whom He foreknew, these He justified".

Paul belongs to the group in v28, but doesn't belong to the group in v29.

The fact that your new interpretation of Romans 9 refutes the corporate view, which you need to make it through the chapter, hasn't even been addressed yet. You're refuting the only hope you have of making it through the chapter without sovereign election.
Click to expand...
He can't do the math of his misuse of Romans 8:28-30.
 
fltom said:
I claim they are known of God

1 Corinthians 8:3 (ESV) — 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.


Known now known formerly is irrelevant


you are trying too hard and making unsound conclusions
Click to expand...
He has beaten you, Tom.
 
CookedGoose said:
Right, because you are combining v28 with v29
You're assuming they are the same group,
The "known" in verse 28 are the same group as the "foreknown" in verse 29.
Click to expand...
You have no idea what you are talking about

I am not assuming they are the same, that was your claim


hello

You are so confused you have no idea what you are saying



CookedGoose said:
Ruins your whole theory v29 refers to only dead people.
You can't claim they're 2 different groups, otherwise you can't claim the "known" in v28 will be glorified.
Click to expand...
Sorry that is a totally absurd argument

All believers will eventually be glorified

think

You are simply not making any sense at all




CookedGoose said:
Your whole argument started out with 2 completely different groups, alive vs. dead.
Now you're combining them again

Your doctrine "blows with the wind".
Click to expand...
You have no idea what you are saying

I never combined them

You do that

think before you post as your claims are quite absurd
 
fltom said:
I am not assuming they are the same, that was your claim
Click to expand...
Tom, listen carefully.....
If you're going to claim the "known" in verse 28 will be glorified,
Where do you get that idea from? You get it from verse 29.

But if you're going to claim they are 2 completely different groups because they are not "foreknown"
You can no longer make that claim.

You also can't claim they are justified, since you're assuming they're a different group

At this point you also can't claim it was Israel who was foreknown and called (Jacob) in Chapter 9
So you have also destroyed your corporate view which is absolutely required to make it through Chapter 9.
 
CookedGoose said:
Tom, listen carefully.....
If you're going to claim the "known" in verse 28 will be glorified,
Where do you get that idea from? You get it from verse 29.

But if you're going to claim they are 2 completely different groups because they are not "foreknown"
You can no longer make that claim.

You also can't claim they are justified, since you're assuming they're a different group

At this point you also can't claim it was Israel who was foreknown and called (Jacob) in Chapter 9
So you have also destroyed your corporate view which is absolutely required to make it through Chapter 9.
Click to expand...
as the promise is

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

and as an example they were told


Romans 8:29–30 (KJV 1900) — 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

all the good mentioned in verse 29 belongs to those in verse 28

so those in verse 28 are predestinated, justified and will be glorified when they die

seeing as both love god all the blessing that those who were known in the past are available for all known now

your denial is simply not logical and you need to rethink your object as it is not sound.
 
fltom said:
as the promise is

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

and as an example they were told


Romans 8:29–30 (KJV 1900) — 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

all the good mentioned in verse 29 belongs to those in verse 28

so those in verse 28 are predestinated, justified and will be glorified when they die

seeing as both love god all the blessing that those who were known in the past are available for all known now

your denial is simply not logical and you need to rethink your object as it is not sound.
Click to expand...
@CookedGoose, does the above statement line up with @fltom's original statement, or has he tweaked it away from his original statement?
 
Howie said:
@CookedGoose, does the above statement line up with @fltom's original statement, or has he tweaked it away from his original statement?
Click to expand...
he's absolutely tweaked it.
In fact he's now completely flipped.
He was claiming v28 refers to those alive while v29 refers to dead people.
Now he claims this.....
fltom said:
all the good mentioned in verse 29 belongs to those in verse 28
Click to expand...
Tom, does verse 29 refer to dead people only, or the same people as verse 28?
 
fltom said:
so those in verse 28 are predestinated, justified and will be glorified when they die
Click to expand...
Well.....yes, but not because they are different groups
Instead it's because the promises and calling of God are irrevocable.

And because God is outside of time, to be known by God is also to be foreknown by God.
Foreknown isn't referring to dead people.
It also isn't referring to Israel.
 
CookedGoose said:
he's absolutely tweaked it.
In fact he's now completely flipped.
He was claiming v28 refers to those alive while v29 refers to dead people.
Now he claims this.....

Tom, does verse 29 refer to dead people only, or the same people as verse 28?
Click to expand...
Not a thing has changed

neither of you are capable readers

where is the this?

you posted nothing showing contradiction

verse 28 remains a promise to the living

while verse 29 is the example from the past

demonstrate a flip if you can
 
CookedGoose said:
Well.....yes, but not because they are different groups
Instead it's because the promises and calling of God are irrevocable.

And because God is outside of time, to be known by God is also to be foreknown by God.
Foreknown isn't referring to dead people.
It also isn't referring to Israel.
Click to expand...
Do you not read?

Known , foreknown is not simple knowledge but refers to a relationship of love between God and man

Note

Matthew 7:23 (ESV) — 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

God is not saying he had no knowledge of his existence but that they never had a relationship

Do better
 
fltom said:
so those in verse 28 are predestinated, justified and will be glorified when they die
Click to expand...
Listen Tom,
You can't say that without claiming they are also foreknown
You're trying to break a golden chain, take out the pieces that fit your theory and leave the rest.
 
fltom said:
Not a thing has changed

neither of you are capable readers

where is the this?

you posted nothing showing contradiction

verse 28 remains a promise to the living

while verse 29 is the example from the past

demonstrate a flip if you can
Click to expand...
Sorry, Tom, you have very little credibility with me.
 
fltom said:
Known , foreknown is not simple knowledge but refers to a relationship of love between God and man
Click to expand...
Right, but I'm guessing if the debate changes you'll go back to saying it's "simply knowing ahead of time."
fltom said:
God is not saying he had no knowledge of his existence but that they never had a relationship
Click to expand...
Most any Calvinist agrees with this, it's your side that always objects.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top