Ceasing to exist, or suffering for eternity in "hell"
- Thread starter Unbound68
- Start date
They were taught it.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
I have a friend who describes this question to be nothing but bloodthirstinest. What else could it be?
Scriptures do not teach it but the early Catholic Church found if to be useful in keeping the folks in line, and the collection plates full. Unfortunately Martin Luther and the early Protestants found it that way also.
The second death is exactly what it claims to be.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Nothing drives thinking people away from communion with YHWH more effectively than this evil doctrine.
Do you really believe in immortal fire-proof worms?
Do you really believe in immortal fire-proof worms?
Dant01
Well-known member
~
There are folks at large-- e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, et al --who insist human life is
entirely organic and does not survive the termination of one's material body. If it
turns out those folks are resting upon a false premise, their disappointment will be
very grievous.
● Eccl 12:7 . . For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to
God who gave it.
The million dollar question is: What does God do with people's spirit once He gets it
back?
And another: Is it possible peoples' spirits are transferable to a different form of
existence than the one they have now; maybe even an existence that can
withstand incineration?
Those are very, very disturbing questions; especially for Jehovah's Witnesses
because they believe the angel Michael's life force was transferred to Mary's womb
so he could exist as a human being; and then when his human existence passed
away on the cross, Michael's life force was transferred back so he could pick up
where he left off as an angel. Were I a JW, the Watchtower Society's thoughts
about Michael's life force would make me very nervous.
_
There are folks at large-- e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, et al --who insist human life is
entirely organic and does not survive the termination of one's material body. If it
turns out those folks are resting upon a false premise, their disappointment will be
very grievous.
● Eccl 12:7 . . For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to
God who gave it.
The million dollar question is: What does God do with people's spirit once He gets it
back?
And another: Is it possible peoples' spirits are transferable to a different form of
existence than the one they have now; maybe even an existence that can
withstand incineration?
Those are very, very disturbing questions; especially for Jehovah's Witnesses
because they believe the angel Michael's life force was transferred to Mary's womb
so he could exist as a human being; and then when his human existence passed
away on the cross, Michael's life force was transferred back so he could pick up
where he left off as an angel. Were I a JW, the Watchtower Society's thoughts
about Michael's life force would make me very nervous.
_
Dant01
Well-known member
~
● Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord-- and
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome
to all mankind.
That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea
Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures,
excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.
A worm that thrives in brimstone is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot enough
to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like
the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even
warmer.
● 2Cor 5:11 . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men
The Greek word translated "knowing" means to know firsthand, viz: by experience
rather than by education and/or instruction.
In other words: there were incidents at various times in the lives of Paul and his
contemporaries when God scared 'em out of their wits.
Well; there's nothing like a good old fashioned close encounter of a third kind to
convince even the most resistant skeptics; and Paul's history attests that his was a
really stubborn case.
Of course if any of us were to claim we've experienced the terror of the Lord, we'd
be singled out as kooks and crackpots; but for some of us, fright is the only
persuasion that works; for example:
When I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers,
we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly
photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured
eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like.
Let me tell you: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp
distinction between the fool and the wise.
A Danger Foreseen;
Is Half-Avoided.
(Cheyenne Proverb)
A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
(Prov 22:3)
_
● Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord-- and
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome
to all mankind.
That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea
Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures,
excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.
A worm that thrives in brimstone is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot enough
to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like
the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even
warmer.
● 2Cor 5:11 . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men
The Greek word translated "knowing" means to know firsthand, viz: by experience
rather than by education and/or instruction.
In other words: there were incidents at various times in the lives of Paul and his
contemporaries when God scared 'em out of their wits.
Well; there's nothing like a good old fashioned close encounter of a third kind to
convince even the most resistant skeptics; and Paul's history attests that his was a
really stubborn case.
Of course if any of us were to claim we've experienced the terror of the Lord, we'd
be singled out as kooks and crackpots; but for some of us, fright is the only
persuasion that works; for example:
When I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers,
we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly
photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured
eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like.
Let me tell you: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp
distinction between the fool and the wise.
A Danger Foreseen;
Is Half-Avoided.
(Cheyenne Proverb)
A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
(Prov 22:3)
_
Hawkeye
Well-known member
The judgement fires in Isaiah 66 are the same as those in [Mark 9:43]
YLT: `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
Gehenna is the same as the Hebrew "Hinnom" which was the valley where the Israelites tortured and sacrificed their children and is located to the west and southwest of Jerusalem [II Kings 23:10][II Chronicles 28:3][Jeremiah 19:2-5][Jeremiah 32:35].
What is "unquenchable? It means that a fire is burning because of existing fuel and won't go out until that fuel is consumed. Ask any fireman today about unquenchable fires that keep on burning because the fire has not yet totally burned up its fuel. As soon as there is no more fuel the fire will no longer burn.....and will go out on its own.
In Yeshua's day the Gehenna fires were nothing more than a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem and it consumed all kinds of refuse that was constantly added......even the bodies of dead criminals who had not been claimed by relatives as well as carcasses of dead animals. It was an unquenchable fire that had constant fuel. It no longer burns today which confirms the fact that it was/is not eternal.
To claim that a fire will keep on burning forever goes against common sense and reality.
The folks that heard His message could in no way have come up with the idea that this fire would burn forever.
YLT: [Mark 9:44] where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
As you can see.....the literal translation of the Greek does not say the worm will live forever.....but is currently not dead because it has constant animal and human tissue with which to feed upon.
[Isaiah 66:24] And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!
[Jeremiah 17:27] And if ye do not hearken unto me to sanctify the day of rest, And so as not to bear a burden, And to come in at the gates of Jerusalem on the day of rest, Then I have kindled a fire in its gates, And it hath consumed the high places of Jerusalem, And it is not quenched!'
Same Hebrew word...............
The above passage describes the Babylonians putting Jerusalem to the torch. Does Jerusalem still burn today?
Dant01
Well-known member
~
● Jude 7 . . Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them . . . are set forth for
an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Eternal fire is a bit of a mystery. Apparently it's properties are adjustable.
For example Moses' burning bush. Though it was thoroughly aflame, the bush
wasn't consumed.
In the example given by Luke 16:19-31, the rich man is immersed in flame; and
although he is quite miserable; he too isn't consumed.
In the example given by Isa 66:22-24, the incinerating dead bodies are a
permanent feature; intended to be viewed by visitors month after month.
Apparently neither the bodies nor their wormy parasites will be consumed by the
flames.
Another characteristic of eternal fire is that it requires no fuel: it is self-sustained
just as eternal life is self-sustained.
Thus far, I've managed to accumulate very little information relative to the retribution
God has in store for certain folk, but the little I have to date is nightmarish enough to
make me not wish for more.
_
● Jude 7 . . Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them . . . are set forth for
an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Eternal fire is a bit of a mystery. Apparently it's properties are adjustable.
For example Moses' burning bush. Though it was thoroughly aflame, the bush
wasn't consumed.
In the example given by Luke 16:19-31, the rich man is immersed in flame; and
although he is quite miserable; he too isn't consumed.
In the example given by Isa 66:22-24, the incinerating dead bodies are a
permanent feature; intended to be viewed by visitors month after month.
Apparently neither the bodies nor their wormy parasites will be consumed by the
flames.
Another characteristic of eternal fire is that it requires no fuel: it is self-sustained
just as eternal life is self-sustained.
Thus far, I've managed to accumulate very little information relative to the retribution
God has in store for certain folk, but the little I have to date is nightmarish enough to
make me not wish for more.
_
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The unsaved will not receive immortality. The end result for them will be permanent death.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
YLT: [Jude 7] as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
The literal Greek Koine does not call it eternal....but of an age.
There is no such thing as eternal fire as there is no eternal fuel. This is not a mystery.....much to the chagrin of Catholicism. As I said in an earlier post. This fantasy was started to "Keep the folks in line and the collection plates full".
Is it still on fire?
Where are these flames referred to as eternal?
Month after month is not eternal
The Hebrew speaks in the present tense....i.e. " the worm is not dying".
You do not find in scriptures the words "Eternal Fire". This is a Catholic myth.
In the classical Greek Koine the word for eternal is "AIDIOS" and you find it only one time in the scriptures:
YLT: [Romans 1:20] for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
Every other occurrence in the New Testament where you see the words "everlasting; eternal; forever; etc., etc. it has been mistranslated from the Greek "AIONIOS" which designates a long time......but with a beginning and an end.
“[Aristotle]..... says: "aión sunekes kai aidios,"
Eternal (aidios) aión describing God. Aristotle adds aidios to aión to insure the eternity of God demonstrates that he found no sense of eternity in the word aión. The idea that the Greeks held that word to mean endless duration is thus refuted.
(De Caelo, Lib. ii, cap. i.)
A merciful Great God would not condemn someone to trillions of years of burning for stealing a candy bar from a convenience store......and refusing to acknowledge their sin and ask for forgiveness.
Dant01
Well-known member
~
The way I understand it; Hell isn't only about penalty. It's also a confinement
utilized for quarantine. In other words: God doesn't want folks around Him that
are capable of theft any more than folks capable of dishonesty. The books to be
opened at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 will not only
determine folks punishment, but the sins inventoried therein will be entered into
evidence as proof they are capable of unacceptable behaviors.
_
The way I understand it; Hell isn't only about penalty. It's also a confinement
utilized for quarantine. In other words: God doesn't want folks around Him that
are capable of theft any more than folks capable of dishonesty. The books to be
opened at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 will not only
determine folks punishment, but the sins inventoried therein will be entered into
evidence as proof they are capable of unacceptable behaviors.
_
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Annihilation (ceasing to exist when physical death occurs) is the desperate desire of Non-Christians / Athiests. Just Ceasing to be, like a candle flame being extinguished, is simple, painless, and withing human understanding, when you're old, and tired and sick of the pain.
A continued existence in one of two places is much more intimidating. I don't see annihilation in the Bible, though. it appears that the human spirit is eternal. THAT'S a frightening thought particularly for those that know they've fallen short of God's conditions.
It’s what the Bible teaches. “Destroyed,” “perish,” “hath not life” and other such words and phrases do not connote immortality.
All your human opinion and irrelevant to the ultimate fate of the lost.
No, the idea of your family members and friends living with God and Jesus eternally while you are erased from any shape, manner, or form of existence is much, much more to be feared by anyone with a pulse.
Knowing they will go on and on and on while you will be as if you never were…..and you won’t even be missed. Now THAT is terrifying.
It’s there. Conditional immortality might be a better way of understanding it.
No it isn’t. Eternal life and immortality is a gift from God. Man isn’t born or created with an immortal spirit. Adam and Eve had to eat from a tree of life. When they sinned, they were forbidden to eat anymore from it, “lest they live forever.”
The lost do not live forever. Their damnation is when they are resurrected from hades/sheol, judged, and then wiped from existence; i.e., their second death.
A more frightening thought is that you think God would punish with everlasting fire and torment all those who never hear the gospel in the same way as He would punish a murderer.
Why would those who never hear the gospel be subjected to an eternally burning lake of fire?
1. Is it reasonable to suppose that God created man an immortal being, and yet never once in his holy word informed us of the fact?
2. Is it reasonable to suppose that if man naturally possessed immortality, God’s word would recommend us to seek for it, as it does in Romans 2:7?
3. Is it reasonable to suppose, that if men were naturally immortal, God’s word would so plainly assure us that “God only hath immortality?” 1 Timothy 6:16.
4. Is it not far more reasonable to believe that immortality is the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord? Romans 6:23.
5. Is it reasonable to suppose that words, when found in the Bible, must have a meaning attached to them, which no man in his senses would ever think of attaching to them in any other book? For instance, the words Life and Death, when found in the Bible, must (as theologians tell us) mean happiness and misery; but, if found in any other book in the world, they would simply mean “Existence” and “Cessation of existence.”
6. Is it reasonable to suppose that in all the vast multitude of passages in which Christ promised Life, Eternal Life, to his followers, he did not literally mean what he said? This he could not, if all men have immortal life by nature. In that case the wicked will live through eternity as well as the righteous.
7. Is it reasonable to suppose, in all the vast multitude of passages in which Death is threatened as the punishment of the sinner, that loss of happiness is all that is meant? An unhappy man is as truly alive as the most happy being in existence; and if he be immortal by nature, will continue alive through all eternity. In no plain, common-sense language can any immortal being be said to suffer Death.
8. Is it reasonable to suppose that infinite wisdom would invariably use language which was only calculated to mislead mankind? or which none but doctors of divinity could unravel? Would God speak in riddles to men in the great matters which concern their salvation?
9. Is it not more reasonable, and more in accordance with the wisdom and love of God to suppose that he would give his creatures such a revelation, as plain, common-sense people could easily understand? He has done so: if men would use their reason in reading the Bible, as they would do in reading any other book.
10. Is it reasonable to believe that men go to heaven or hell immediately at death, and then hundreds or thousands of years afterward are taken out to be judged, and to see which they deserve to be sent to? Should we deem it right to send a man to the State’s prison for ten years, and then bring him out for trial to see if he deserved such a punishment? And “shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
11. Is it reasonable that such prominence should be given in Scripture to the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, if that event only means a “re-union” of a lump of clay, with the conscious thinking and real man—the soul; and which is said by theologians to be as capable of happiness or misery, without the body as with it?
12. Is it reasonable to talk about a “death that never dies,” when there is not a word in Scripture to sanction such a contradictory phrase? Would it not be equally reasonable to speak of the reward of the righteous as a “life that never lives?” Is there not as much common sense in the one as in the other?
13. Is it reasonable to be so constantly, both in sermons and prayers, talking about “immortal souls,” “never-dying souls,” “deathless spirits,” and such like expressions, when there is not from Genesis to Revelation one single passage to warrant the use of such language?
14. Is it reasonable to say that eternal death and eternal torment are synonymous expressions (as theologians tell us)—for how then can it be said in Revelation 21:4, “There shall be no more death?”
15. Is it reasonable to believe that a hell of fiery torment and ceaseless misery is to exist forever, when God says [Revelation 21:5], “Behold, I make all things new?”
16. Is it reasonable to believe in the eternal torment of the wicked, when more than two hundred passages of Scripture plainly affirm that they shall “die,” be “consumed,” “devoured,” “destroyed,” “burnt up,” be as though they had not been,” etc.?
17. Is it reasonable to believe that the righteous in their glorified state can be indifferent to, and unaffected by, the endless sufferings of countless millions of their fellow beings; among whom would probably be found parents, children, husbands, wives, etc.? Is is possible that they will be destitute or deprived of qualities which are considered most lovely and godlike in this life; viz., piety, sympathy, compassion, commiseration for others’ woes, etc.? Will insensibility to the woes of the wretched ever become a virtue? Will that which is a vice in this life, become a grace in the glorious future life? Is the standard of virtue thus variable, that what is vicious here, is to be gracious hereafter?
18. Is it reasonable to believe that a God of infinite rectitude will punish with eternal torment the heathen who have never heard of Christ, and who therefore could not reject him? Is it possible that God can cast into one indiscriminate mass of fiery torment, the least wicked among the heathen, together with the most guilty in this Christian land? for such must be the case if their souls are immortal, and if their torment is to be eternal. There can be no degrees in that which is infinite. Is is not far more reasonable to believe the apostle’s words literally, “For as many as have sinned without the law, shall also perish without law?” Romans 2:12
19. Is it reasonable to believe that God is such a vindictive being, that his justice cannot be satisfied with the death of the offender? but that he must be constantly pouring floods of fiery wrath upon the wretched being through the ever rolling cycles of eternity?
Excerpted from James Springer White, Appeal on Immortality.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Correction: it's what YOUR PARADIGM about the Bible teaches. There's TWO deaths - physical, and spiritual.
Nor do they connote Annihilation.
Wouldn't bother me at all.
PHYSICALLY. You need to get your "Deaths" straight.
That's your paradigm again. the opposite is just as likely.
God has ways of reaching people Abraham (abram) never heard the "Gospel" - until God came to HIM PERSONALLY. in the final analysis, God KNOWS THE HEART. But he gave US a job of evangelizing, even though HE can do it just as well without us.
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
In MY OPINION, He did.
Who cares about Man's "reason". man knows NOTHING Of God's ways, or motivations. and your cut and paste means nothing. God SAYS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS WAYS. and you don't. neither do I. But I'll not take the chance that you're correct.
Ya, you always say that when you aren’t able to understand what scripture actually teaches.
No there aren’t.
I forgot trinitarians use a different lexicon than the rest of the world.
We’ll see.
Wrong. Why did Adam and Eve need to eat from the tree of life before they sinned? Where does their “eternal spirit” come into play if they never would’ve sinned and died?
A word salad that doesn’t even attempt to explain why God would mete out an eternal and torturous punishment that’s not commensurate with the crime.
Prove it.
God gave us a brain and the ability to reason. To cast it aside like you always do only shows that you refuse to be challenged on your ingrained beliefs. Why not tackle all 19 points I listed?
We know things about God based on His word that he gave to us.
So you’re denying that God gave some teachers to help instruct the body of Christ?
Chalking up your inability or refusal to understand scripture that is, in fact, understandable, is not to be blamed on God or some nebulous mystery.
I try to understand what God has told us about himself and his Son in scripture.
So why not do something about it?
So you’d rather tell fables than acknowledge the possibility of being wrong?
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It’s appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.
At the judgment those that are Christ’s begin their eternal life with Christ. Those who are lost are erased from existence, which is called the second death…..not because it’s spiritual, but because it’s final.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Chuckle!!! Believe whatever lights your fire. I'll do the same.