DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

pilgrim said:
For prayer to Mary and the saints to be actual "worship" you would have to prove that Catholics believe that Mary and the saints are actual gods. Can you do that? What can you cite as proof?
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I'm so glad you asked;

CCC 2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her...

The official teaching of the rcc is that you absolutely do pray TO her.

"My mother, upon thee I will establish the seat of my kingdom, for through thee will I bestow the graces that are asked of me: thou hast given me the human nature; I will give to thee, as it were, a divine nature, that is, my omnipotence, by which thou canst assist all who invoke thee to obtain their salvation."

Ligouri; The Glories of Mary pp 248

1. Mary is prayed TO
2. She has a divine nature...omnipotence i.e. all power, an attribute of deity

Now tell us Ligouri doesn't speak for rome. His piece of skubalon has been out for over 200 years, never censored never edited and still in print. Rome must be awfully proud and condoning of this work to keep it in print for so long.
 
pilgrim said:
Will you listen to the other side objectively? Will anyone else here?
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I we do all listen and then we reject the false teachings as scripture tells us to do. RCs get upset because we reveal the flaws in their false teachings. Then we use do what scripture tells us to do and reject false teachers. Then they show how they do not know what love their neighbours means.

When will RCs ever listen to the other side objectively?
 
pilgrim said:
Why? Why all the division in Protestantism if everyone just reads the Bible and does what it says?
The Lutheran says that baptism is salvific. She *sees* that in Scripture. Why don't you?
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Why? Why do the divisions within the RCC when they are told to believe what the pope and his cronies teach?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
The Bible is the standard for Catholics.

The question is---who or what has the final say as to what the Bible means? You seem to think it is Greek lexicons. I say--fine. Give me a Scripture verse that teaches this.
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Oh let us be honest, it is not the standard for RCs. They throw it under the bus every chance they get. Things like is only the original the word of God etc.

The standard for the RCs are the catechism and their popes and his buddies. The poster no where said Greek lexicons is the standard, that is bearing false witness.

Give me the verse that says we are to follow false teachers?
 
Nondenom40 said:
I'm so glad you asked;

CCC 2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her...

The official teaching of the rcc is that you absolutely do pray TO her.

"My mother, upon thee I will establish the seat of my kingdom, for through thee will I bestow the graces that are asked of me: thou hast given me the human nature; I will give to thee, as it were, a divine nature, that is, my omnipotence, by which thou canst assist all who invoke thee to obtain their salvation."
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Yes, so that she will intercede on our behalf before her Son.
 
Nondenom40 said:
"My mother, upon thee I will establish the seat of my kingdom, for through thee will I bestow the graces that are asked of me: thou hast given me the human nature;
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She has a human nature. That is what she gave to God.

I will give to thee, as it were, a divine nature, that is, my omnipotence, by which thou canst assist all who invoke thee to obtain their salvation."
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as it were​

A qualifier typically used in spoken English to emphasize that something is not exactly as it is being described. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/as+it+were

God shares His omnipotence with her (He does not make her divine) in some way because He can and He is generous.

John 17: 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
 
pilgrim said:
She has a human nature. That is what she gave to God.


as it were​

A qualifier typically used in spoken English to emphasize that something is not exactly as it is being described. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/as+it+were

God shares His omnipotence with her (He does not make her divine) in some way because He can and He is generous.

John 17: 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
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He doesn't make her divine? Well Ligouri is a dr and saint in your church and he says she is. Who are you to say otherwise?
 
balshan said:
No need for her to do so, when we can go directly to her Son and when we are adopted into the family we are His siblings. Imagine going to your mother to ask her to ask your brother to do something.
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"The prayers of the righteous availeth much."

Heb 12: 2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the SPIRITS of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
 
balshan said:
No need for her to do so, when we can go directly to her Son and when we are adopted into the family we are His siblings. Imagine going to your mother to ask her to ask your brother to do something.
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Terrible asking someone to pray for you, isn't it?
 
Nondenom40 said:
...
Now tell us Ligouri doesn't speak for rome. His piece of skubalon has been out for over 200 years, never censored never edited and still in print. Rome must be awfully proud and condoning of this work to keep it in print for so long.
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You mean St. Alphonsus Liguori, who lived from 1698 to 1787? Who was Beatified by the Roman Catholic Church in 1816 – 29 years post mortem, and canonized in 1839 – 52 years post mortem?

Yeah. Liguori "doesn't speak for Rome." That's why as a "Saint" in the RCC he has been given the titles of Bishop, Moral Theologian, Confessor and Doctor of the Church, with his own special day in August. The RCC totally disagrees with what he wrote. Uh, huh. Pull the other one. It's got bells on it.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
pilgrim said:
"The prayers of the righteous availeth much."

Heb 12: 2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the SPIRITS of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
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It is talking about the prayers to God not the creation.
 
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