No, I've used it to determine you, and your theology, have a very real contradiction to overcome.
Did Jesus teach TULIP
- Thread starter Matt Slick
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Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
I'm faithful to the written word. The contradiction is yours. Have you read John 15 and seen that the Father cuts some who are really in Christ off the vine?
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I don't think you are.
In the written word, in Jn 6:44, Jesus says He will raise all those given to Him by the Father.
You say that in Jn 15, the Father says Jesus doesn't know what He's talking about. The Father contradicts Jesus by saying some of those He's given Jesus to raise up Jesus will not raise because some of those will not produce fruit and because of that, the Father will throw them into hell.
prove it.
That would make God a liar. You haven't proven God lies. Let me kmow when you do.
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Answered HERE
David1701
Well-known member
The declaration is to all those who think themselves to be Christians.
Keeping God's commandments is not something that a born again Christian might or might do, since the Bible tells us that the saved do bear fruit, some thirty, some sixty and some an hundredfold. The Bible also says, as I quoted previously and you seem to have ignored, that someone who has been born of God cannot revert to a life of sin (John 3:9).
What does this have to do with the gospel?
God commands all men everywhere to repent, because that is what they ought to do. He also declares that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will be saved. We are to tell people the gospel and their responsibility in responding to it. We don't know whom God has elected to salvation, until or unless they get saved.
David1701
Well-known member
Living branches are "in Christ" by being attached to the tree. They have the living sap of the Holy Spirit flowing into them, producing fruit.
Dead branches are "in Christ" by being amongst the other branches (e.g. by attending meetings of the local body of Christ and/or by profession); however, they do not have a living connection with the tree, no sap flows into them and they do not bear fruit. They have not been saved.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
John 6:44 does not use the word "all." You have inserted it.
American Standard VersionJohn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Verse 44 is a continuation of the same subject, part of which is:
American Standard VersionJohn 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
There is a requirement for the one who is to be resurrected. He must "observe the Son with sustained attention" and "perceive" him.
He must "entrust himself" to the Son in "complete confidence".
These glosses are from BDAG for θεωρεί and πιστεύω.
And if we harmonize with John 15, the Father also cuts any in Christ off the vine who don't bear fruit.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
You have just added to Jesus' words at John 15.
Or can you exegete it from the same text?
Your shaky position reduces you to useless quibbling.
Jn 6:37-38 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
See above.
Those are them given to the Son by the Father.
Correct.
Correct.
Jn 10:27-28: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Do you understand the two points Jesus makes in that passage?
1. Those given eternal life by Jesus will never lose it.
2. The Father WILL NOT take away from Jesus and cast into hell those who have been saved.
Back to the drawing board for you and BDAG
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Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
Jesus uses the Greek εν εμοι (in me) which is the technical term for being "in Christ" or part of the body of Christ.
Since Jesus is the one at J 15:1-2 who says they are in him, what they think has nothing to do with it.
I don't recall you exegeting J 3:9. It does not seem to apply.
It runs counter to my personal knowledge of Gods justice.
Can you exegete Modified Molinism from the same text?
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
Good for you to read back up the discourse!
I'd like to point out something that one cannot tell from the English translation. The first word rendered "all" is in the Geeek neuter. It's intentional.
It is neuter because it refers to a class. It's a collective sense.
Jesus is saying that the entire class or number will be given to the Son by the Father.
He will not drive them away and he will not lose any. That does not mean that the Father won't remove some from the vine as J 15:1-2 teaches.
Yes.
Not true, as you prove in your opening statement.
Thanks.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
If the Father removes one who is in Jesus as per J 15 Jesus did not drive them away or lose them.
The Father is Jesus' God.
Jn 10:28 says the Father WILL NOT take away from Jesus and cast into hell those Jesus has saved.
Read it.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
The word there is snatch, to grab or seize suddenly (αρπάζω)
Of course the Father will not do that. And that's got nothing to do with J 15. The Father there prunes. He is the owner of the vine and all its branches.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
It's true.
You make the Father and Son liars ...
God is not going to steal eternal life from those to whom Jesus has given it (Jn 10:27-28). Jesus, and the Father one; they are in agreement in all things.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
God is not stealing at J 15. He is the owner of the vine and branches.
The word snatch is a very negative one that only fits an enemy.
It's not even close to a possible counter text.