Did Moses, and the people of Israel, kill the paschal lambs on the afternoon of the 14th day?

davbeh2010

Active member


No, they did not. Moses and the people of Israel followed the God of Truth's service, according to His commands.

From Moses' perspective, and from the people of Israel's perspective at that time, the paschal lambs were slain between sunset and darkness. (i.e. "between two evenings" - i.e. "between Yahweh's designated evening for the people of Israel (i.e. sunset) and Yahweh's evening (i.e. end of daylight"))

The paschal lamb sacrifices were offered at Yahweh's appointed time as shown to Moses. (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "between two evenings" - between "sunset" and "end of daylight") Based on what, one may ask?

Answer: Based on the covenant Yahweh made with Moses and the people of Israel written in the Torah. (i.e. not based on the covenant the people of Israel made with Yahweh during the latter time of the Second Temple period - i.e. one's man-made rituals - i.e. "commandments of men" that make the "word of God" of no effect through one's traditions - i.e. (Matthew 15:7-9; Mark 7:6-13))

Yahweh commanded "... you shall keep this service" - (i.e. Exodus 12:6; 24-27) (Emphasis mine)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
No, they did not. Moses and the people of Israel followed the God of Truth's service, according to His commands.

From Moses' perspective, and from the people of Israel's perspective at that time, the paschal lambs were slain between sunset and darkness. (i.e. "between two evenings" - i.e. "between Yahweh's designated evening for the people of Israel (i.e. sunset) and Yahweh's evening (i.e. end of daylight"))

The paschal lamb sacrifices were offered at Yahweh's appointed time as shown to Moses. (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "between two evenings" - between "sunset" and "end of daylight") Based on what, one may ask?

Answer: Based on the covenant Yahweh made with Moses and the people of Israel written in the Torah. (i.e. not based on the covenant the people of Israel made with Yahweh during the latter time of the Second Temple period - i.e. one's man-made rituals - i.e. "commandments of men" that make the "word of God" of no effect through one's traditions - i.e. (Matthew 15:7-9; Mark 7:6-13))

Yahweh commanded "... you shall keep this service" - (i.e. Exodus 12:6; 24-27) (Emphasis mine)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Speaking of the Lamb. I have a question. Did God provide a lamb or a ram in place of Isaac sacrifice. Abraham said that God would provide a Lamb. Gen 1:8 " Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together." Was that Paschal Lamb (Yeshua) provided later to fulfill this scripture.? Was a ram and a lamb the same offering for the sacrifice? Sorry if I am going off topic but that thought came to my mind. What do our Jewish friends say?
 
No, they did not. Moses and the people of Israel followed the God of Truth's service, according to His commands.

From Moses' perspective, and from the people of Israel's perspective at that time, the paschal lambs were slain between sunset and darkness. (i.e. "between two evenings" - i.e. "between Yahweh's designated evening for the people of Israel (i.e. sunset) and Yahweh's evening (i.e. end of daylight"))
Which is still late afternoon until dusk. At what time did Jesus die?

The paschal lamb sacrifices were offered at Yahweh's appointed time as shown to Moses. (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "between two evenings" - between "sunset" and "end of daylight") Based on what, one may ask?
See above.

Answer: Based on the covenant Yahweh made with Moses and the people of Israel written in the Torah. (i.e. not based on the covenant the people of Israel made with Yahweh during the latter time of the Second Temple period - i.e. one's man-made rituals - i.e. "commandments of men" that make the "word of God" of no effect through one's traditions - i.e. (Matthew 15:7-9; Mark 7:6-13))
Already answered.

Yahweh commanded "... you shall keep this service" - (i.e. Exodus 12:6; 24-27) (Emphasis mine)
Yes. What's your problem, dave?

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 
Which is still late afternoon until dusk. At what time did Jesus die?
See above.
Already answered.
Yes. What's your problem, dave?
In the true God's service.

Some understand "between the evenings" (i.e. "bein ha'arbayim" - first mentioned in (Exodus 12:6)) to refer to the period "between sunset and darkness", while others interpret it to mean the period "between the afternoon and sunset".

Does one doubt that Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) showed Moses and the people of Israel His exact meaning of His command in (Exodus 12:6)?


Which is still late afternoon until dusk. ...

Interesting, is one implying that "between sunset and darkness" (A) = "between the afternoon and sunset". (B)

ss|________________________(_B_)ss|(A)________________________ss|


Since the calendar days from Moses' perspective were understood to be from "sunset" to "sunset", one's answer doesn't make any sense. From Moses' perspective, period (A) belonged to one calendar day, while period (B) belonged to another calendar day. It would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in (Exodus 12:6).



In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Some understand "between the evenings" (i.e. "bein ha'arbayim" - first mentioned in (Exodus 12:6)) to refer to the period "between sunset and darkness", while others interpret it to mean the period "between the afternoon and sunset".

Does one doubt that Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) showed Moses and the people of Israel His exact meaning of His command in (Exodus 12:6)?




Interesting, is one implying that "between sunset and darkness" (A) = "between the afternoon and sunset". (B)

ss|________________________(_B_)ss|(A)________________________ss|


Since the calendar days from Moses' perspective were understood to be from "sunset" to "sunset", one's answer doesn't make any sense. From Moses' perspective, period (A) belonged to one calendar day, while period (B) belonged to another calendar day. It would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in (Exodus 12:6).
You didn't answer my question. At what time of day did Jesus die?

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 
You didn't answer my question. At what time of day did Jesus die?
In the true God's service.

One doesn't understand context nor the Scriptures. (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21) At this point, I am starting with the Torah, because one thinks that the covenant for the people of Israel remained the "same", even after Yahweh the God of Truth declared that the people of Israel "broke" the covenant. (i.e. Exodus 12:6, 24-27; 2 Chronicles 35:18; Jeremiah 31:31-32)

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. (i.e. John 1:29, 36) 100% absolutely True!
The Lamb of God died at the God of Truth's "appointed time" of sacrifice on the fourteenth day of the first month. The answer was already given to one, before one asked.

(i.e. "between two evenings" - i.e. "between Yahweh's designated evening for the people of Israel (i.e. sunset) and Yahweh's evening (i.e. end of daylight"))


Does one doubt that Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) showed Moses and the people of Israel His exact meaning of His command in (Exodus 12:6)?
Does one agree that it would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in the Torah (Exodus 12:6)?



In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
One doesn't understand context nor the Scriptures. (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21) At this point, I am starting with the Torah, because one thinks that the covenant for the people of Israel remained the "same", even after Yahweh the God of Truth declared that the people of Israel "broke" the covenant. (i.e. Exodus 12:6, 24-27; 2 Chronicles 35:18; Jeremiah 31:31-32)
Of course the covenant remained the same... same laws, same blessings, same curses.

Israel wouldn't be punished if the covenant were changed.

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. (i.e. John 1:29, 36) 100% absolutely True!
If that were true, there'd be no more death.

The Lamb of God died at the God of Truth's "appointed time" of sacrifice on the fourteenth day of the first month. The answer was already given to one, before one asked.
That's funny because you're arguing he should have died at twilight according to the law as you understand it.

Does one doubt that Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) showed Moses and the people of Israel His exact meaning of His command in (Exodus 12:6)?
I doubt you understand it.

Does one agree that it would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in the Torah (Exodus 12:6)?
In the desert, Israel was altogether. In the diaspora it's quite different when witnesses are needed to declare the new moon and new month. You couldn't argue against this previously.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 
Of course the covenant remained the same... same laws, same blessings, same curses.
Israel wouldn't be punished if the covenant were changed.

Since the covenant was broken (i.e. Exodus 12:6, 24-27; 2 Chronicles 35:18), the consequence was – (i.e. Exodus 12:14,15,19)

Exodus 12:19 Revised Standard Version of the Bible (Emphasis mine)
19 For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses; for if any one eats what is leavened, that person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land.



That's funny because you're arguing he should have died at twilight according to the law as you understand it.

There was sunset. (i.e. Amos 8:7-10) There was “end of daylight” (i.e. Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33) There was twilight (i.e. between two evenings)

Hebrews 11:6 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


In the desert, Israel was altogether. In the diaspora it's quite different when witnesses are needed to declare the new moon and new month. You couldn't argue against this previously.

In the wilderness, Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) was all that the people of Israel needed.

Exodus 12:1-2 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month shall be for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for you.


The Karaite interpretation of when Moses and the people of Israel observed the Passover offering was correct. (i.e. "between the two evenings" - between sunset and complete darkness) They obviously understood that it would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in the Torah (Exodus 12:6).

(i.e. ss|________________________(_B_)ss|(A)________________________ss|)



In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Paschal is a Christian term. Did you mean PASSOVER lamb? You realize, I hope, that the Passover sacrifice did not atone.



An Everlasting Covenant

Ezekiel 16:60-63 Scripture taken from the New King James Version (Emphasis mine)
60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’ ”




In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

An Everlasting Covenant

Ezekiel 16:60-63 Scripture taken from the New King James Version (Emphasis mine)
60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’ ”




In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
This has nothing to do with the Pesach corban (passover sacrifice). The Passover sacrifice does not atone.
 
Since the covenant was broken (i.e. Exodus 12:6, 24-27; 2 Chronicles 35:18), the consequence was – (i.e. Exodus 12:14,15,19)
2 Chronicles 35:1 says the sacrifice was brought the day of the 14th.

Karet is only for those found eating yeast.

I don't see where Jesus used the tabernacle as you've been harping on for his blood.

Exodus 12:19 Revised Standard Version of the Bible (Emphasis mine)
19 For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses; for if any one eats what is leavened, that person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land.
Yep. One that isn't circumcised physically or has come in contact with the dead can't eat it as well.

Btw, the Passover is only for Israel, not the church as you've shown above. ;)

There was sunset. (i.e. Amos 8:7-10)
Yes, God doesn't forget those that stay in sin.

There was “end of daylight” (i.e. Matthew 27:45;
Sorry, no twilight here. Afternoon hours are described.

Mark 15:33) There was twilight (i.e. between two evenings)
Sorry, noon hours are described. Below is the note from biblehub.


33 g That is, from noon until three in the afternoon

So, Jesus didn't fulfill the Passover lamb.

Hebrews 11:6 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Doesn't help you.

In the wilderness, Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) was all that the people of Israel needed.
And yet they had Moses, Joshua, etc.

Exodus 12:1-2 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month shall be for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for you.
Yes.

The Karaite interpretation of when Moses and the people of Israel observed the Passover offering was correct. (i.e. "between the two evenings" - between sunset and complete darkness)
The issue is what is twilight. Several verses say the day of the 14th.

Obviously, Jesus didn't die at twilight how you think.

They obviously understood that it would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs
How?

on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in the Torah (Exodus 12:6).
Tell me how to determine the new moon? When all of Israel is together in one spot isn't an issue.

Since judges/witnesses determine the new moon and months, i.e., Deut 17:8-13, then we know what we're doing, according to the law of Moses. ;)

Lev 23
4These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times.

You don't need to post anymore. You're repeating yourself from last year, and are still debunked.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 
Last edited:

An Everlasting Covenant

Ezekiel 16:60-63 Scripture taken from the New King James Version (Emphasis mine)
60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’ ”
No mention here of Passover.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 
This has nothing to do with the Pesach corban (passover sacrifice). The Passover sacrifice does not atone.




Isaiah 55:8-9 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) can atone any way that He chooses. Does one make Yahweh's choice of atonement for Him? If so, how does one do that?


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 


Isaiah 55:8-9 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) can atone any way that He chooses. Does one make Yahweh's choice of atonement for Him? If so, how does one do that?
True, but you got debunked regarding the Pesach.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In the true God's service.
 


Isaiah 55:8-9 Revised Standard Version of the Bible
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) can atone any way that He chooses. Does one make Yahweh's choice of atonement for Him? If so, how does one do that?


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Again, nothing you posted says that the Pesach corban atoned.

God can forgive whomever he wants. He does not require a sacrifice of any sort. He requires repentance.
 
The Karaite interpretation of when Moses and the people of Israel observed the Passover offering was correct. (i.e. "between the two evenings" - between sunset and complete darkness) They obviously understood that it would be impossible for Moses and the people of Israel to offer the paschal lambs on two different calendar days in fulfillment of the God of Truth's one command in the Torah (Exodus 12:6).

(i.e. ss|________________________(_B_)ss|(A)________________________ss|)

The issue is what is twilight. Several verses say the day of the 14th.


I gave the meaning of "twilight", first mentioned in (Exodus 12:6). Yahweh (i.e. God of Truth) showed Moses and the people of Israel His exact meaning of "twilight". (i.e. period (A) - "beginning" of the fifteenth calendar day from the perspective of Moses and the people of Israel - however, it was the "end" of the fourteenth day from Yahweh's Perspective (i.e. God of Truth's Perspective - (Genesis 1:5))


The meaning of "twilight" from the perspective of period (B) was not yet revealed by Yahweh to the people of Israel in the wilderness.

Was the Karaite interpretation of God's commands to Moses and the people of Israel wrong? (Exodus 12:6,15) Is one going to disagree with the Pharisaic sages? (i.e. Rabbi Jonathan and Rabbi Jose - Mekhilta Pisha 8:38-41)

Note: Another perspective of (Exodus 12:15) was held by (i.e. Rabbi Ishmael - Mekhilta Pisha 8:38-41). However, I believe that Rabbi Ishmael would have been able to come into agreement with Rabbi Jonathan and Rabbi Jose regarding (Exodus 12:15), given the knowledge of the present day. (i.e. Deuteronomy 29:29)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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