Divided God head

Know, I said that God was reconciling the world, to Himself, in Christ. God is the actor, and God is the final destination. He was reconciling to himself. Men are not reconciling with God.

Wait... you actually believe I said that... *snicker*. Read what I said again. ". God was reconciling...to himself. Reconciling in Christ. It comes full circle, which you deny." Those dots are where the in Christ and the world were.
You have no circle

The verse does not teach God was being reconciled to man which is what PSA teaches

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Hello

You have agreed that God was the actor and that God was reconciling the world to himself

The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other
 
The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other

False.

The whole idea of reconciliation necessitates two parties, an offense between them, and a means of reparation, all described in the Bible.

You can bet the devil wants to make Jesus dying a decorative thing instead of fulfilling the Law's demands.
 
False.

The whole idea of reconciliation necessitates two parties, an offense between them, and a means of reparation, all described in the Bible.

You can bet the devil wants to make Jesus dying a decorative thing instead of fulfilling the Law's demands.
Here is the verse

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Show where God is being reconciled to the world by Christ in his crucifixion


God is the actor here

the World the acted on
 
You have no circle

The verse does not teach God was being reconciled to man which is what PSA teaches
No the verse teaches that God was reconciling man to Himself. Circular. It starts with God and the verse ends with... Himself. A CIRCLE. If God was not reconciling, no man could come to Him. There is no man reconciling with God. It is God reconciling with man...on His own terms, which is... IN CHRIST. God committed to the disciples the word of reconciliation that is to be found in Christ. For without Christ, there is no reconciliation. Why not? Without Christ there is no forgiveness of sins. Why not? Without Christ man is still guilty, and has already been judged.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Hello
You have agreed that God was the actor and that God was reconciling the world to himself
The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other
"The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other"
This is called a strawman. This is when you invent/fabricate/make up an argument that actually has nothing to do with the argument, and then smoke it. The more fantastical the argument, the higher you get. You keep ignoring what Paul says in Colossians. It is very clear, and he states it in very legal terms. It speaks to the heart of the atonement, which is that Jesus took our penalty (death) upon Himself, paying for us a debt we could never pay. Why? The death for us is eternal. A sinner cannot atone for themselves. They can always get a substitute, like that cute cuddly little sheep there, and slaughter it for their atonement (in sacrifice of course... completely painless and peaceful... mind the blood.)

The passover lamb. When the angel saw that the people slaughtered a lamb, and put its blood on the posts, it passed over them. It died for them, in their place. It gave its blood for the family. This is why God gave the law that all the first born of all in Israel had to be dedicated to God. Bad news if you were an animal, worse news if you were an unwanted donkey. Good news for humans because God ORDERED them to be redeemed by killing an animal instead. That was why Jesus was brought to the priest, and redeemed with two turtle doves, if I recall correctly. God was clear when He tied this back to the event of the passover and Exodus. All talk about substitution.

Penal Substitution is simply the idea that someone else took YOUR punishment. It wasn't their punishment, it was yours. They took it instead. Jesus took your penalty and paid it for you. When you believed in Christ, God forgave you in Christ, and reconciled with you. How? According to you, you still owe God eternal death.
 
fltom said:
You have no circle

The verse does not teach God was being reconciled to man which is what PSA teaches

Armylngst stated
No the verse teaches that God was reconciling man to Himself. Circular. It starts with God and the verse ends with... Himself. A CIRCLE. If God was not reconciling, no man could come to Him. There is no man reconciling with God. It is God reconciling with man...on His own terms, which is... IN CHRIST. God committed to the disciples the word of reconciliation that is to be found in Christ. For without Christ, there is no reconciliation. Why not? Without Christ there is no forgiveness of sins. Why not? Without Christ man is still guilty, and has already been judged.

Sorry the reconciliation seen in the passage is of man to God

We do not read of God being reconciled in the passage

as is plain


fltom said:
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Hello
You have agreed that God was the actor and that God was reconciling the world to himself
The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other
Click to expand...

Armylngst
"The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other"
This is called a strawman. This is when you invent/fabricate/make up an argument that actually has nothing to do with the argument, and then smoke it.

That is funny

That is the whole idea behind PSA and you want to call it a strawman

Seriously?
 
Sorry the reconciliation seen in the passage is of man to God
WHAT?!?!?! Are you saying that God does not reconcile man to Himself in Christ? It is OUR choice to reconcile, and God has NO say in the matter? Does God cry if we decide not to reconcile with Him, as though it is that important to someone as busy as God? I understand it brings to question whether we have any choice if God has decided, as Creator, to be reconciled to you, His creation, which means that He has to make it so, and we don't get to question or say no. Who are you to talk back at your Creator? As such, it seems to reason that whatever needs to happen to make His will happen, will happen. You will, with zombie like fervor, accept His reconciliation. Not. Whatever may keep you from desiring it will obviously be removed, and obviously within the given system of how the world works.
We do not read of God being reconciled in the passage
One reads that God is reconciling man to Himself in Christ. God is the one doing the reconciling. We are not, hence it ends with "to Himself". That is, He is removing the barrier that stands between Him and us, keeping Him from reconciling us to Himself, and He is doing that... in Christ. So by Christ's actions, that which is keeping God from reconciling the world to Himself (I am not saying He wants to, or is reconciling Himself to the world), has been removed by Christ's dying on the cross. As such, the passage says that in Christ, God is reconciling the world to Himself. It couldn't be put any clearer. It is as though Christ's only reason for dying is so God can go out and be reconciling the world to Himself. It's like, God's big night out, as Christ is suffering and dying on the cross. (If you deny His suffering, you may want to read Paul again, who not only does not deny Christ's suffering, but revels in the idea that he, simply a man, may get to suffer as Christ had suffered.)
Armylngst
"The idea God was being reconciled to man by the exhaustion of his wrath through an exercise of retributive punishment does not appear in this passage or in any other"
This is called a strawman. This is when you invent/fabricate/make up an argument that actually has nothing to do with the argument, and then smoke it.

That is funny

That is the whole idea behind PSA and you want to call it a strawman

Seriously?
Um no. That is what YOU say is behind PSA, which is why it is called a strawman. You are saying that that is the whole idea behind PSA< where I told you that what stands behind PSA is the idea, as stated by Eusebius, that Jesus took upon Himself the penalty that we could never pay, and paid it in our place. "Oh sweet exchange", as is stated in the epistle to Diognetus in the 2nd century I believe, to the same idea. Exchange, as in... substitution. That is the heart of PSA... exchange/substitution. You don't get to tell us how it is, when we know how it is, and have stated it clearly.
 
WHAT?!?!?! Are you saying that God does not reconcile man to Himself in Christ? It is OUR choice to reconcile, and God has NO say in the matter? Does God cry if we decide not to reconcile with Him, as though it is that important to someone as busy as God? I understand it brings to question whether we have any choice if God has decided, as Creator, to be reconciled to you, His creation, which means that He has to make it so, and we don't get to question or say no. Who are you to talk back at your Creator? As such, it seems to reason that whatever needs to happen to make His will happen, will happen. You will, with zombie like fervor, accept His reconciliation. Not. Whatever may keep you from desiring it will obviously be removed, and obviously within the given system of how the world works.

Seriously did you even read?

I stated

Sorry the reconciliation seen in the passage is of man to God

Hello

I just affirmed what you imagined I denied

In any case

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NIV2011)
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

that verse shows that on the cross God was reconciling man to God

there is nothing there about Christ reconciling God to man

Now do you have a verse showing God was being reconciled by Christ's sufferings?
 
that verse shows that on the cross God was reconciling man to God

there is nothing there about Christ reconciling God to man

Logically it's just two sides of the same coin. Reconciliation is a two way, not one way, street.
 
Logically it's just two sides of the same coin. Reconciliation is a two way, not one way, street.
You need to prove it was at the cross God was reconciled to man by the application of retributive justice

my bible notes

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NIV2011)
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

1 John 4:10 (NIV2011)
10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

John 3:16 (NIV2011)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God was working toward reconciling man not being reconciled by the application of retributive punishment upon Christ
 
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Nowhere is it stated the cross is God pouring his wrath out on Christ
Ah yes, the weak, argument from silence fallacy.
retributively punishing and forsaking him
But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; THE PUNISHMENT for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed ... (Is 53:5; cf 1 Pet 2:24; Gal 3:13).
 
Ah yes, the weak, argument from silence fallacy.

But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; THE PUNISHMENT for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed ... (Is 53:5; cf 1 Pet 2:24; Gal 3:13).
Er

Isaiah 53:5 (ESV)
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

scripture interprets scripture

In this caser the new testament the old

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

chastisement, instruction, discipline fits the new testament data
 
Er

Isaiah 53:5 (ESV)
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

scripture interprets scripture

In this caser the new testament the old

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

chastisement, instruction, discipline fits the new testament data
Thanks for the eisegesis, Tom. Why do you reject, oppose, twist scripture? ?
 
Thanks for the eisegesis, Tom. Why do you reject, oppose, twist scripture? ?
LOL

You ignore scriptures interpretation of scripture

why?

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As i stated chastisement better fits the new testament data
 
Er

Isaiah 53:5 (ESV)
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

scripture interprets scripture

In this caser the new testament the old

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

chastisement, instruction, discipline fits the new testament data
Thanks for the eisegesis, Tom. Why do you reject, oppose, twist scripture? ?
LOL

You ignore scriptures interpretation of scripture

why?

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As i stated chastisement better fits the new testament data
Why do 8gnore scriptures 8ntetpretati9n of scripture, Tom?
 
Thanks for the eisegesis, Tom. Why do you reject, oppose, twist scripture? ?

Why do 8gnore scriptures 8ntetpretati9n of scripture, Tom?
You fail to prove any such thing

you even failed to address or include scriptures you ignored

why?

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 
You fail to prove any such thing

you even failed to address or include scriptures you ignored

why?

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I have succeeded in proving scripture supports my position. Why do you oppose scripture, Tom?
 
More unsupported claims

first you ignore the scripture i post

then you post unsupported claims
Tom, why do you make unsupported claims while ignoring the scripture I post to support my claims? Huh, why??? Give the link?
 
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