Does God expect us to sin?

C

christ_undivided

Well-known member
From an Arminian position, the focus of 1 John 2:1 is often the first "half" of 1 John 2:1. However, the last "half" is often ignored.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

First let me say that I don't rejoice in sin. However, I am keenly aware of my current condition. I look forward to receiving my heavenly body and the resurrection of the dead. I'm corruptible. I will not always remain that way. I will be raised incorruptible. Paul said that we "groan within ourselves having received the first fruits of the Spirit". I greatly desire the redemption of our bodies. This same man hated his condition

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am!

I "feel" the same. I'm not the young seemly invincible man I once was. I grow weaker as the years pass. I realize the bad attitudes I've had throughout my life more now than I ever have. I still battle them. If most of you knew my history, you would probably consider me a success. I accomplished more in this life than most anyone ever has in my family going back generations. I'm not bragging. Just stating facts. Not that it matters really to me. I see the emptiness of it now like I never have before. I'm not going to try to appeal to my faithfulness to justify God's blessing. God has blessed me despite my many failures. I didn't earn anything. I am a recipient of the Grace of God.

Have said that, I'm sure that what I'm about to say will not "go over well" with many of you.

If you pay attention to the last half of 1 John 2:1 you read....

"But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. "

Reason with me, if there is an actual expectation of believers to not sin, then why the "if"? I'm not saying that sin isn't' sin. I'm not saying that sin isn't bad. I'm not saying "let us sin that Grace may abound". (even though Paul himself was accused of that position given his Gospel).

When we "argue" over sin like we do here. We often do it from a position of an absolute contrasting position. Sin or don't sin. I don't see it that way. Sin shouldn't happen, however, it is an inevitable outcome of the circumstances of this life that demands the "if" in the last half of 1 John 2:1.

I'm not being legalistic. I'm not. There isn't a legalistic "bone" in my body. I'm not struggling with lying. I'm not struggling with being a thief. I'm not struggling with murder. I'm not an old man finding value in how successful I've been. My issue is a keen sense of just how weak I am as a human being housing the precious Spirit of God.

Unless the our Lord "Keep me", there is no hope for me.

Now, let the bashing began.
 
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Bump. I don't see any Arminians dealing with the chastening of sons.

There are no secrets here. We know that Arminians can't teach chastening. Chastening is progressive. It takes time. It takes a lifetime.

I've sinned and didn't realize I was sinning for many years. So have the rest of you.
 
I looked up the word expect: regard as likely to happen; anticipate the occurrence or the coming of

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. At least that is how the King James puts it. If not, then people's name were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world . . .

If he wasn't expecting sin and the fall, why would He choose some?
 
christ_undivided said:
Bump. I don't see any Arminians dealing with the chastening of sons.

There are no secrets here. We know that Arminians can't teach chastening. Chastening is progressive. It takes time. It takes a lifetime.

I've sinned and didn't realize I was sinning for many years. So have the rest of you.
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Thats funny

I have never heard an Arminian deny it

As a Provisionist I don't
 
christ_undivided said:
From an Arminian position, the focus of 1 John 2:1 is often the first "half" of 1 John 2:1. However, the last "half" is often ignored.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
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On a different Christian forum site, there is a deceived individual who actually believes that he lives a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived). Someone on that site asked him this question: "Do you claim to be 100% without any sin, like Christ, from moment to moment 24/7" and he said, YES. o_O

I commented that if sinless perfection were true, then John never would have stated in 1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The person who believes that he is sinless 100% of the time responded by saying, "Any man not born of God." Seriously? o_O

John is addressing "my little children" (children of God) in 1 John 2:1 and not children of the devil. I'm convinced that those who claim to be 100% without any sin, like Christ, from moment to moment 24/7 are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
 
fltom said:
Well provisionists generally hold one who is regenerate cannot fall away

yet it cannot be denied there are those who follow only temporarily

but 1 point is no Calvinism
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It depends on who is asking. I realized that you didn't oppose the "P".

We agree on this. Wouldn't you also agree that a Arminian has a difficult time explaining chastening if they believe sin separates a believer from the Spirit of God?
 
christ_undivided said:
It depends on who is asking. I realized that you didn't oppose the "P".

We agree on this. Wouldn't you also agree that a Arminian has a difficult time explaining chastening if they believe sin separates a believer from the Spirit of God?
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No i do not

I formerly was an Arminian (there is little difference between Arminians and Provisionists)

The churches I have mostly attended tend towards Arminanism and all acknowledge false converts and Gods discipline of his sons
 
fltom said:
No i do not

I formerly was an Arminian (there is little difference between Arminians and Provisionists)

The churches I have mostly attended tend towards Arminanism and all acknowledge false converts and Gods discipline of his sons
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I don't see how chastening works for Arminians if they claim God disowns sons. It would require they define when sin brings chastening and when the son is orphaned.
 
christ_undivided said:
I don't see how chastening works for Arminians if they claim God disowns sons. It would require they define when sin brings chastening and when the son is orphaned.
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God does not disown sons

He discards false converts

and that after much long suffering
 
Some anti-Calvinists aren't true Arminians. I imagine the majority of peope who claim they have been saved don't study doctrine. Some people claim that Christians don't have to abandon addictions to bad behavior. Others claim that if you sin at all, you are not in Christ. Church of the Nazarene used to teach that you can should be "entirely sanctified."
 
I'm a Classical Arminian who believes in chastening.

Your argument seems to be, if some sin forfeits salvation, how can you tell the difference between chastening and apostasy?

Is that your argument, because I'm having trouble understanding what your objection even is?!
 
Janice Bower said:
Some anti-Calvinists aren't true Arminians. I imagine the majority of peope who claim they have been saved don't study doctrine. Some people claim that Christians don't have to abandon addictions to bad behavior. Others claim that if you sin at all, you are not in Christ. Church of the Nazarene used to teach that you can should be "entirely sanctified."
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just like some calvinists are not true calvinists.

hope this helps !!!
 
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