Foreknown but not determined

Sketo said:
What Determined what God "sees"?...

... and how long did it exist before "God sees" it?
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Observation in the progressive present, the only time that God created. God is omniscient (including foreknowledge) but He interacts in the only time there is, the progressive present.
 
Crazy Ivan said:
That's not true. I mean, it might be true that God both knows something will happen and that He determines that something will happen. But knowing it will happen is not the same thing as determining it will happen.
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Did God "know" his own reactions, that would occur in the timeline of creation, before he determined those reactions?
 
Kampioen said:
God is miraculous, not putting him in a box with human philosophy like you do, making Him have no other choice but to predetemine us.
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This is like saying......
1. He foreknew He would create us.
2. He therefore determined to create us.
then....
3. Our existence is a miraculous accident.

This paradox requires some extensive explanation to say the least.
 
preacher4truth said:
He doesn't put Him in a box with philosophy.

You do.

He uses Scripture, you grasp at straws and make blasphemous remarks about God, and rarely use Scripture.
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Actually I don't see people using scripture but philosophy, including you. Because philosophy is often is used to attack Arminianism and they often use philosophy to defend it.

If you want to see plenty of scriptural response, refer to fltom. It doesn't seem to matter.

But ok. You say God has no other choice than to predetermine us. Correct? Where is that in Scripture?
 
CookedGoose said:
This is like saying......
1. He foreknew He would create us.
2. He therefore determined to create us.
then....
3. Our existence is a miraculous accident.

This paradox requires some extensive explanation to say the least.
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Our existence is not an accident. God intentionally created us. That is not a paradox, foreknolwedge or not.

But libertarian free will is a paradox, because it is neither predetermined or random, but a third paradoxical option, libertarian free will.

We use randomness as analogies only to show that foreknowledge doesn't influence outcome or the other way. But it is not actually randomness or even a miracle but a paradox. God exists for no reason at all. Then so does a paradox. There may not be an explanation.
 
CookedGoose said:
This is like saying......
1. He foreknew He would create us.
2. He therefore determined to create us.
then....
3. Our existence is a miraculous accident.

This paradox requires some extensive explanation to say the least.
Click to expand...
That's why it has been stated he is grabbing at straws. There is nothing Biblical there at all.

This is one reason why Paul told us to stick to the word. Those who do not eedure wander off into myths and fables, and listen to those who preach them; 2 Timothy 4:1-4. Those false teachers they give heed to are God's judgment on them for not enduring sound teaching.

We are seeing it in action, live, on this forum.
 
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Kampioen said:
Actually I don't see people using scripture but philosophy, including you.
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This isn't true, I use Scripture, but that is wasted on you.
Kampioen said:
Because philosophy is often is used to attack Arminianism and they often use philosophy to defend it.
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Scripture refutes Arminianism. Note the Synod of Dort.
Kampioen said:
If you want to see plenty of scriptural response, refer to fltom. It doesn't seem to matter.
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What a lame cop out. You are on a Christian forum, and have no use for Scripture.

In other words, you're not going to use, nor are you interested in Scripture, you're interested in what comes to your finite mind (note Proverbs 18:2 folks) then you spew those blasphemies against God on here.
Kampioen said:
But ok. You say God has no other choice than to predetermine us. Correct? Where is that in Scripture?
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That's your problem, not mine. You came up with your little unbiblical ditty and accusation, and erected the straw man, so there is no need to answer your foolish questions, Titus 3:9.

I will however leave you with one Scripture; John 3:7. That is totally necessary and relevant for your sake.
 
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Kampioen said:
But libertarian free will is a paradox, because it is neither predetermined or random, but a third paradoxical option, libertarian free will.
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And you're saying God has libertarian free will, correct?

Are you saying God intended to create humanity, but it was not predetermined or random?
 
Kampioen said:
Actually I don't see people using scripture but philosophy, including you. Because philosophy is often is used to attack Arminianism and they often use philosophy to defend it.

If you want to see plenty of scriptural response, refer to fltom. It doesn't seem to matter.

But ok. You say God has no other choice than to predetermine us. Correct? Where is that in Scripture?
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Amen Calvinist routinely deny scripture on this website
 
CookedGoose said:
And you're saying God has libertarian free will, correct?
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Yes.

Are you saying God intended to create humanity, but it was not predetermined or random?
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Yes.

But it doesn’t mean that God didn't libertarianly have the option to be arbitrary, and may have done so. But He was not limited to having no other choice but to create or unconditionally predetermine all things.

God libertarianly had a choice to be arbitrary within the nature of His wants and rules. But it was all purposeful in God's mind, and so Yes, God intended it.
 
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